**************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: thoughts on the failed rebellion -------- I've been thinking a lot about DKM's trio of messages the other day (arrived on my birthday, what a *wonderful* birthday present! ;)). One of the parts I've been thinking a lot about has been the failed Tricentennial revolution. DKM said that 'Ring *knew* tha [sic] the `76 rebellion would fail'. So what was the point? As I said, I've been thinking about that (and I'm rereading tLD right now). It occured to me to ask myself what was different after the rebellion... 1. Japan declared independence. It didn't work, of course -- but they DID it. This has an effect. 2. The US rebelled. It didn't work, of course -- but they DID it. This has an effect. (Both of these, for want of a better word, `raising consciousness' -- people seeing that things are bad enough that two different groups are willing to sacrifice *everything* to change their status. If nothing else, it would raise some questions in people's heads.) 3. After the rebellion, there are more PKF in the US than before -- a situation that was already tense, and now made worse. The PKF caused the deaths of civilians (so did the rebels, of course, but they're *romantic*, as Dvan points out -- their actions tend to be looked at less critically). 4. The PKF does not know how many nukes are out there. (There are none, but they can't let themselves believe that.) 5. The PKF Elite are now known to be vulnerable, many of them were killed, and the PKF was unable to hide it. It is also known *how* they were killed. The PKF has two choices: they can remove the superconducting mesh (and then leave them vulnerable to normal lasers/masers), or they can leave it there (thereby leaving them vulnerable to being cooked alive). In other words, the 'indestructable' fighting force is now... human. Faster and stronger, of course, but an AI-controlled waldo should be able to counter that. 6. Eddore is now in as Secretary General for an indeterminate amount of time. Power corrupts, remember -- and the fact that Eddore is a *brilliant* politician and leader doesn't change that. I think 4 and 5 are probably the two most important ones for Ring. (4) means the PKF may never be willing to go too far, for fear that they will be retaliated against, and (5) means that the people finally have a weapon of their own against the government. DKM also said that Ring had gamed things out *far* in advance -- that's what Ring was originally designed to do, it seems, to game out war simulations. In that respect, it's probably different from most of the other AI's in the Net. Given that, the above-listed items are probably very, very important... as are, I am sure, others I've missed (and others we just don't know about yet). As an aside, I just compared the first timeline DKM posted, years ago, and the one sent out to the list recently. It's no longer obvious that there's a revolution! "Players, Book Two: Revolution" has been replaced with "Crystal Wind," but the chapter "A Revolt in 2100" is not in the new timeline! (And, strangely enough, there's no "Deathjokes, Part II" in the new timeline.) I mention this because I was going to point out that the revolution is 20 years after the end of the A.I. War -- and, due to other things DKM has made available, we know a large part of how *that* ends (but I'm not going to say anything which would spoil it for those who haven't read the stuff from the floppies DKM sent out). I am barely able to wait for The AI War :(. Why can't it be august yet? Waaah :(. ;) Sean. **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "Serathin," "Ssrathin," and "Zaradin" -------- Storyteller tells of the creation of the universe(s?) involving the Envoy of Balance (aka "The Chained One") and the Serathin. I had been assuming that those were the Ssrathin aka the Zaradin -- but it just occurred to me that maybe they're not. Thoughts? Sean. **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: PKF & Laser resistant armor? -------- On Sun, 1 Jan 1995 15:39:21 -0800 you said: [...deletia...] >5. The PKF Elite are now known to be vulnerable, many of them were >killed, and the PKF was unable to hide it. It is also known *how* they >were killed. The PKF has two choices: they can remove the >superconducting mesh (and then leave them vulnerable to normal >lasers/masers), or they can leave it there (thereby leaving them >vulnerable to being cooked alive). There was somethin I was wondering about, and I was hoping that someone more technically literate than myself might be able to comment on it: Besides the superconducting mesh, DKM mentions only one other kind of defense against lasers, namely, having red and green fiberglass of the commonest laser frequencies woven into a soldier's combat fatigues (EE, pg 72). Now, I remember reading several years back about a special kind of mirror called, I believe, a "phase-conjugate mirror", that would reflect /any/ light (including coherent, of course, that was the whole point) back at the same angle of incidence at which it had struck the material of the mirror. This was in Scientific American, would that I could remember the month & year. So my question is: how feasible would this be as a defensive armor? Would a strong enough laser simply burn through it? For that matter, even if it was useful against visible-light lasers, how would it fare against microwave (masers) or x-ray lasers? If no-one knows anything more, I might be able to find the article or related articles. But it would be nice if, say, a physicist specializing in optics was also a DKM fan.... :-) --- David S **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" , sean eric fagan Subject: Re: thoughts on the failed rebellion -------- On Sun, 1 Jan 1995 15:39:21 -0800 you said: >I think 4 and 5 are probably the two most important ones for Ring. (4) >means the PKF may never be willing to go too far, for fear that they >will be retaliated against, and (5) means that the people finally have a >weapon of their own against the government. In other words - the point of the exercise was: 1) To lower the morale of the PKF 2) To raise the morale of the Rebel Alliance, oops, I mean Johnny Rebs & Erisian Claw. :-) To this I would add - The Ring may also have wanted to see how a real military situation would run its course, as opposed to just running simulations. It may have been testing its own ability to make predictions, and how well its strategy actually worked. And of course, it may have been testing American military competence - to destruction. >From Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_, Griffith translation: "War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin. It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied" --- David S. **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "Serathin," "Ssrathin," and "Zaradin" -------- > > Storyteller tells of the creation of the universe(s?) involving the > Envoy of Balance (aka "The Chained One") and the Serathin. > > I had been assuming that those were the Ssrathin aka the Zaradin -- > but it just occurred to me that maybe they're not. > > Thoughts? > > Sean. > Well in my opinion they probably are. Ssrathin is probably just how they pronounce Serathin (being big lizards and all). Alternatively, Serathin is just the human equivalent of how they pronounce their names. Then again, there could always be the Serathin group within the Ssrathin, which are the 8 non-human greater gods. This is probably unlikely, however. One question involving the Ssrathin which I'd like answered, though, is why they only worshipped the eight greater gods and not the ten (apart from the two they didn't being human). Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "Serathin," "Ssrathin," and "Zaradin" -------- >Well in my opinion they probably are. Ssrathin is probably just how they >pronounce Serathin (being big lizards and all). Alternatively, Serathin >is just the human equivalent of how they pronounce their names. I ask because in the Timeline of Events (in the trio of messages sent out last friday), we have "First biological life forms in Home Galaxy" -- that would seem to include the Zaradin/Serathin/Ssrathin, no? (And there's a comment in tLD, presumably by Storyteller, while Dvan is watching the spacelace tunnels, about how the Zaradin had learned something three billion years prior.) However, Storyteller's Story, in tLD as he tells Trent of the creation of the universe, would have the Serathin around since *before* the creation of the universe. (In other words, I have some basic problems with this, and want to know what everyone else thinks...) >One question involving the Ssrathin which I'd like answered, though, is >why they only worshipped the eight greater gods and not the ten (apart >from the two they didn't being human). The two human Gods of the Zaradin Church didn't exist before the Time Wars ended. The two human Gods are Kayell November, Named Storyteller, and Camber Tremodian, the Nameless One. A better question would probably be, "What is a God of the Zaradin Church?" ;) Sean. **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Varying ways of saying Serathin -------- >I ask because in the Timeline of Events (in the trio of messages sent >out last friday), we have "First biological life forms in Home Galaxy" >-- that would seem to include the Zaradin/Serathin/Ssrathin, no? (And >there's a comment in tLD, presumably by Storyteller, while Dvan is >watching the spacelace tunnels, about how the Zaradin had learned >something three billion years prior.) > >However, Storyteller's Story, in tLD as he tells Trent of the creation >of the universe, would have the Serathin around since *before* the >creation of the universe. (In other words, I have some basic problems >with this, and want to know what everyone else thinks...) Well, if they were around since before creation, they'd still be one of the first races in the universe. It might be the case that before the creation they were simply entities, whereas after the creation/chaining they were forced into corporeality (a word I really like). At this point they'd know that something bad had happened, but wouldn't be sure just what it was. When they then find out about the twisting lines, they realise what the hell happened. >The two human Gods of the Zaradin Church didn't exist before the Time >Wars ended. The two human Gods are Kayell November, Named Storyteller, >and Camber Tremodian, the Nameless One. > >A better question would probably be, "What is a God of the Zaradin >Church?" ;) >Sean. Agreed, but once you have time travel then the question of existence becomes pretty much a silly question if you're talking time. Consider that the first human race knew of the existence of ten gods, and worshipped all of them. When the Serathin left, the humans went and destroyed all the eight-sided altars because such were blasphemy to them. So why did the Serathin only worship eight of them? Is it because they don't recognise them as deserving divinity, or what? As for the question of what a God of the Zaradin Church is, it should probably be narrowed down to "What is a Greater God of the Zaradin Church?" since we've never seen a lesser God. Hell, there might not even be lesser Gods, but Storyteller did say "Nine Greater Gods...". Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-02-95 *** **************** From: ibic@sunsite.unc.edu (frederick zimmerman) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: FWD>What's New for Book-Lovers--Dec. 31, 1994 -------- The Dec. 31, 1994 issue of What's New for Book-Lovers (URL http://sunsite.unc.edu/ibic/IBIC-homepage.html) includes pointers to a Daniel Keys Moran home page and the Tales of Continuing time mailing list; the China News digest home page; and a new year's message. ------------------------------------------------------- Frederick Zimmerman, Editor & Publisher Internet Book Information Center WWW URL: http://sunsite.unc.edu/ibic/IBIC-homepage.html Internet e-mail: ibic@sunsite.unc.edu **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "Serathin," "Ssrathin," etc. -------- Sean said: >Storyteller tells of the creation of the universe(s?) involving the >Envoy of Balance (aka "The Chained One") and the Serathin. >I had been assuming that those were the Ssrathin aka the Zaradin -- >but it just occurred to me that maybe they're not. The "Sssrathin," as Saliya pronounces it, and the "Zaradin" as Dvan and Tyrel November both know them, are the exact same folks; reptilian aliens, among the first biological life forms in the Milky Way. The "Serathin," as spelled in the creation myth Storyteller shares with Trent, certainly have something to do with the alien Zaradin; but not all Zaradin aliens are Serathin-out-of-Chaos (the overwhelming majority are not); and not all Serathin-out-of-Chaos are Zaradin (at least two of them are human, in fact.) I've probably said more on this subject than I should have. All Comes Clear in "The Time Wars." A note, BTW: after the end of the Time Wars, the "Zaradin Church" is *not* Zaradin, any more than Roman Catholics are Roman. It's merely the name of the Church founded by the Zaradin before they packed their bags and split. **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: thoughts on the faile -------- David S. said: >And of course, it [Ring] may have been testing American military competence >- to destruction. >From Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_, Griffith translation: >"War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or >death; the road to survival or ruin. It is mandatory that it be thoroughly >studied" >From "The Book of Five Rings," Miyamoto Musashi -- Considering the Site: Now, in actual battle, one should endeavor to chase the opponent around by going to the left, but it is of the utmost importance to force the opponent into a disadvantageous position. Once cornered, the opponent should be chased so that he does not have the opportunity to look around, that is [italics mine] **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: PKF & Laser resistant arm -------- David S. said: >So my question is: how feasible would this be as a defensive armor? >Would a strong enough laser simply burn through it? For that matter, Hard to say, not knowing of the material you're mentioning. However -- >even if it was useful against visible-light lasers, how would it fare >against microwave (masers) or x-ray lasers? Poorly. X-rays go right through glass, including mirrors. **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The Gods and Serathin -------- Well, DKM said: >The "Sssrathin," as Saliya pronounces it, and the "Zaradin" as Dvan and >Tyrel November both know them, are the exact same folks; reptilian >aliens, among the first biological life forms in the Milky Way. This would seem to indicate that Tyrel somehow learns all about the Zaradin, presumably by dealing in some fashion with the Zaradin church (and thus making sense of the prologue to Man-Spacething War). >The "Serathin," as spelled in the creation myth Storyteller shares with >Trent, certainly have something to do with the alien Zaradin; but not >all Zaradin aliens are Serathin-out-of-Chaos (the overwhelming majority >are not); and not all Serathin-out-of-Chaos are Zaradin (at least two of >them are human, in fact.) Well, much kudos to Sean here for getting this. It seems that we're left with Serathin-out-of-Chaos being Greater Gods. Possibly they are called Greater Gods to distinguish them from mythical gods that do not exist. We're also left waiting for a couple of years to find out just what does happen in the Time Wars. Oh well. I can at least entertain myself with some of the possibilities for dialogue (involving a six foot lizard appearing inside the ship of poor-but-honest Trader Camber, tapping him on the shoulder, and informing him that if he stops to consider the matter, he'll discover that he's actually a Serathin-out-of-Chaos, and can do pretty much what he likes. :) >A note, BTW: after the end of the Time Wars, the "Zaradin Church" is >*not* Zaradin, any more than Roman Catholics are Roman. It's merely the >name of the Church founded by the Zaradin before they packed their bags >and split. And so we also get to wonder why the Zaradin race would bother to found a church. Possibly in order to render those the Greater Gods wish to manipulate more malleable? Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Gods and Serathin -------- >This would seem to indicate that Tyrel somehow learns all about the >Zaradin, presumably by dealing in some fashion with the Zaradin church >(and thus making sense of the prologue to Man-Spacething War). Not unlikely. As you point out, the Zaradin Church seems to get involved with humanity for some reason, before we (re?)discover star travel, so it makes sense for there to be a Really Important Reason to mention them ;). >Well, much kudos to Sean here for getting this. It seems that we're left >with Serathin-out-of-Chaos being Greater Gods. Possibly they are called >Greater Gods to distinguish them from mythical gods that do not exist. I don't think so. Saliya says (here, let me go get the book, I don't have it online ;)): It was our Masters who created the Craft, and among our Masters that the first Names arose, the first small gods of what is called today the Zaradin Church. From among the ranks of the Names came the Great Gods, some Zaradin, some not; and it was among the ranks of the Great Gods that conflict arose. Taking DKM's message into account, it seems that the Serathin, for whatever reason, through whatever means, either took corporal form, or otherwise merged with living beings. There is, of course, a lot of background information that I'm barely able to wait for, such as: what, exactly, is a Name? Saliya's statement would have me believe that a Name is one of the gods (great or small) of the Zaradin Church; yet the Old Human Race swore "by the name of my Name" (or was it the "Name of my name"?) -- making me have doubts about that (well, just how many of these gods *are* there? 8-)). We have the Name Historian, which I assumed was a guy Named Historian -- but it could be a single title, a historian who researches the Names of the Zaradin Church (probably a Church official, then, would be my guess). And then there's the whole Camber thing -- he's a Great God, but he's Nameless. And if the Names are Serathin given existance in this universe, then perhaps being Nameless means that Camber isn't a Serathin? But then DKM said that two of the Great Gods are Serathin and human -- and only two of the Great Gods are human, so that would seem to indicate that Camber is a Serathin. >And so we also get to wonder why the Zaradin race would bother to found >a church. Possibly in order to render those the Greater Gods wish to >manipulate more malleable? In the prologue for _Lord November: The Man-Spacething War_: the Damalstran had been taught, by the Zaradin themselves, to avoid confrontation over matters not involving theology. implying that the Zaradin *did* get into confrontations *over* matters involving theology. So why would they found a Church? Taking a guess, I could come up with several reasons, the first being that, well, face it -- these guys have *gods*. At least some of them can travel through and otherwise manipulate time, read minds, move things without touching them, induce atoms to fuse just by thinking about them, and genetically engineer zygotes (again, without touching the chromosones). And they're *real*. And they can -- and, presumably, do -- speak to those who they deem desirable. Seems like a valid reason to start a church, to me. Even a better reason than watching someone walk through a wall ;). Don't mind me, I'm just mentally pacing until August ;). Sean. **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: AI War tactics -------- I'm awake just a bit too early in the morning, and was passing the time by considering some of the possible tactics used by AI's in a war amongst themselves. 1) Use of serious hardware (nukes and the like), as a diversionary tactic, or alternatively, to destroy safe hardware sites belonging to another AI, or perhaps even to generate an EMP so as to knock out unshielded hardware that an AI may be suspected to be on. Basically, nukes get used quite a bit. 2) If the war goes on to the physical plane, it doesn't seem so unlikely that AI's can grow a clone of someone and implant it with certain memories, or even mess with the memories of a pre-grown clone that someone has grown in an attempt to cheat death. If that person is a sufficiently powerful politician... 3) With all these copies of themselves being generated by various AI's, I'd personally like to see one of the copies at some point turning against all the rest for some reason. Or even an AI deciding that a copy of itself is actually a disguised enemy, and then madly attacking, only to find out that it's actually attacking a copy of itself (and badly-coded AI's are out there). 4) PKF elite have all of these really cool computers in them for targetting and other purposes. It doesn't seem so unbelievable that such hardware could be afflicted by an AI-designed virus. Then again, how about a cut-down executable somehow getting in there. Especially seeing as the various computers may act completely independently of the individual (who may be unconscious). Of course, most of these events depend on the War lasting for some reasonable amount of time (in human terms). If the entire AI War only lasts for a period of five minutes, then most of the above are going to be useless in having much effect. They could still be used, however, and then left dormant after the war's end. Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: AI War tactics -------- "Greg Wheatley" wrote: >4) PKF elite have all of these really cool computers in them for >targetting and other purposes. It doesn't seem so unbelievable that such >hardware could be afflicted by an AI-designed virus. Then again, how >about a cut-down executable somehow getting in there. Especially seeing >as the various computers may act completely independently of the >individual (who may be unconscious). The possibility of this would depend on whether there's a mechanism for a virus to get off a network and into the internal hardware of a PKF Elite. I can't remember offhand whether there's anything in the books to suggest such a mechanism. Simple communication channels would probably not be adequate. Also, I'd expect that such hardware would be configured to run programs from ROM or something like it. If so, the worst you could probably do is corrupt program variables. Even then, you'd have to do it by "tricking" the software in the Elite into corrupting those variables themselves. **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: PKF & Laser resistant arm -------- >David S. said: >>So my question is: how feasible would this be as a defensive armor? >>Would a strong enough laser simply burn through it? For that matter, I found the issues I was looking for. They are Scientific American, December 1985 ("Optical Phase Conjugation") & January 1986 ("Applications of Optical Phase Conjugation"). After glancing through the articles, I should amend what I posted earlier: they make much of the fact that the the mirror causes the light to behave as if time-reversed - i.e., not just the same angle, but the same polarity, frequency, etc. It is not any sort of military application that is stressed, but rather the use of such mirrors in error-correction of transmitted optical data (both analog and digital). I'll reread them more carefully in the next few days, and if I don't see the answer to my queries, I'll post to one of the science-oriented newsgroups. >>even if it was useful against visible-light lasers, how would it fare >>against microwave (masers) or x-ray lasers? > >Poorly. X-rays go right through glass, including mirrors. I'm pretty sure that the materials used were *not* glass. But aren't *some* sort of mirrors needed in any kind of laser, for aiming and directing the beam? I do have only a rudimentary knowledge of such things... --- David S **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: An Index? -------- Has anyone so far made any kind of an index of Emerald Eyes, Long Run, and Last Dancer, or any one of them singly? I ask since I was going to re-read EE and TLR anyway, and it wouldn't seem to require any massive expenditure of effort on my behalf. My idea is for the page numbers of important bits in each volume (eg reference to the page in TLR when Denice makes the prophecy, the bits in TLD where Storyteller is talking about the Serathin, and where Dvan is looking at the altar). If I don't find that I'm replicating anyone else's work, I'll start in the next few days. Regards, Greg -- " Hello, Computer Lounge. Can I take your order please?" " Aaargh!" - taken from "The Evil Jane and the Phone, a Computer Lounge Tragedy" **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Comments about List, Part Two. Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA Reply-To: Mike Long -------- >From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com >Date: Sat, 31 Dec 94 00:49:00 UTC >Yes. Steve liked her; yes, he read the book. The genocide he was referring >towas the destruction of the Neanderthals, in Back to the Beginning. This > Are you having (text) editor problems, Dan? This isn't the only incomplete response I saw in your messages.... >I very much enjoyed Snow Crash (except at the purely business level. >Watching the resources and effort Bantam put into publishing that boy's >first novel put me into a wickedly vile mood.) It wasn't Stephenson's first novel; his first novel was _The Big U_, which is now out of print. However, AFAIK it only came out in trade paperback, and from a publisher other than Bantam, so DKM's point is still somewhat valid. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer (PGP 2.6.2 public key available) Analog Devices, CPD Division Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Comments about List, Part -------- MIKE.LONG@ANALOG.COM said: >Are you having (text) editor problems, Dan? This isn't the only >incomplete response I saw in your messages.... I don't know where the problem arose; I went back and looked at my original letter and the text was missing there, too, so it wasn't a transmission problem. Possibly I mis-edited, though I'm usually a little neater than that; possibly it *is* my text editor; I'm using a new one, MegaEdit, that I quite like for the most part. I'll keep an eye on it. >It wasn't Stephenson's first novel; his first novel was _The Big U_, >which is now out of print. However, AFAIK it only came out in trade >paperback, and from a publisher other than Bantam, so DKM's point is >still somewhat valid. I hadn't realized he'd been published before; though I'm not sure it makes me feel much better about how Bantam published his book; it certainly *was* his first book from Bantam. Envy is a useless emotion; I wish Stephenson all the best. He's a fine writer and I did enjoy his book a great deal; it's the first "cyberpunk" novel I've ever *really* enjoyed; most of them (at least when cyberpunk was at its height) were bitterly humorless, written by people who didn't really understand computers, or the culture of the people who make and program computers. The exceptions can be counted on one hand: John M. Ford, "Web of Angels," and yes, that's where the phrase comes from; David Gerrold, "When Harley Was One," both the first draft and revision 2.0; John Brunner, "The Shockwave Rider," and Vernor Vinge, "True Names." Stephenson can be added to that list -- That said, the sell-through on my novels (all of them) has been upward of 85% ... a figure *literally* unheard of in the industry. Last Dancer's sell- through is in the 90% range and is selling *more* copies today than it was six months ago. What this means is that the book was *under-printed* by a factor of about three ... at least. Bantam *does* realize their mistake at this point, but that's cold comfort to a man trying to get a career off the ground; and I'm still not convinced that they'll make the commitment the books need with the new contracts. We'll wait and see. **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: danthony@ksccary.com, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "Snow Crash," etc. -------- DANTHONY@KSCCARY said: >This implies you think _Snow Crash_ was Neal Stephenson's first novel... >I hope this isn't true :-) but knowing how good a writer you are, I >can't imagine you'd make such a writing error ... so I'm assuming it's >a factual error. I hadn't realized it was not his first novel, though it was his first novel w/Bantam. >of those databases I could look it up in from here.) > ^^^^^^^^^^ ;-) <- 3 prepositions! !! Good job. >Anyhow, I guess I may not have needed to inform you of this, but I feel >better anyhow. Don't hold that stuff in; it's bad for you. >Still--and I'm sure you're tired of me saying this-- none of the above >novels are as hard to find as _The Perfect Thief_. You've all heard me ranting about starting my own publishing company; except that it's not entirely a rant. I'm going to be selling copies of "Terminal Freedom," a novel by me and my sister, in a signed limited hardcover edition; if that goes well, we'll branch out with "Devlin's Razor," by Jodi alone; then into "In Cool Blood," by both of us; and assuming all *that* goes well, I certainly intend to approach Ron Bass about the three novels he wrote prior to becoming a Major Movie Screenwriter. They are "The Perfect Thief," "Lime's Crisis," and "The Emerald Illusion." **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Villains -------- DKM writes: >Of all the writing I've done to date, not counting "The Ring," about the > only thing I'm really embarrassed about is Jerrill Carson. He's *such* > a Vicious Nasty Bad Guy. In the real world, yes, such people exist; but > they make for very monochromatic storytelling. Actually, I think including the occansional Vicious Nasty Bad Guy can't really be considered a bad thing; as you say, there are people like that. If done properly, the struggles of those the VNBG is out to get can provide plenty of polychromatic storytelling. Now if every DKM book had one or two like Carson in prominent roles, it would be a problem. So far, this has been far from the case. > One of my favorite scenes in "Last Dancer" (someone in the list also > said this) is the "Why We Fight" lectures by Callia and Vance, in > counterpoint. Two sets of enemies who believe they're fighting for > Just, but mutually contradictory goals, is *much* better storytelling. It's one of those reasons tLD is my favorite. (In response to another comment DKM makes: I think it probably is true that tLR is more successful in what it sets out to do than tLD is. But tLD attempts to do a hell of a lot more.) > Sol Foster said: > >And I think that (Vance learning he was wrong) would make an _excellent_ > >story. The honest man > >working for the wrong people sees his mistake, and sets out to correct > >it. And it would fit in well with his killing Trent in "Players". (If > >Vance comes to the conclusion that the UN is wrong, then he'll probably > >see that Trent is largely in the right. > >Wait for Crystal Wind. Fourteen years of Nasty War pass between "AI War" >and the beginning of "Crystal Wind" -- and Vance has had a lot of time >to reflect. Trent is Vance's obsession between `69 and `80; between `80 >and `94, when Crystal Wind starts, he's had more time to think things >over than he had to chase Trent in the first place. All I can say is "Yay!!!!" After consideration, I'm not sure that I don't like Vance and Melissa better than Trent. Hmmm. What Jalvert have done if he'd caught and killed Valjean? -Sol **************** *** 01-03-95 *** **************** From: marcus eubanks To: continuing time mailing list Subject: compelling speeches -------- DKM wrote: > > One of my favorite scenes in "Last Dancer" (someone in the list also > > said this) is the "Why We Fight" lectures by Callia and Vance, in > > counterpoint. Two sets of enemies who believe they're fighting for > > Just, but mutually contradictory goals, is *much* better storytelling. Along the line of wonderous speeches is Lan's in tLD, "...whatever you spend your life doing, that *is* what you died for." (p 193) -That has got to be one of the most elegant pieces of colorative dialouge I've ever seen. Had it in my .sig for a while, and got *lots* of commentary on it, especially from medical forums. Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) Temple Med '96 Philadelphia, PA USA "A person with an inconvenient value-system." **************** *** 01-05-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The top 100 chart -------- For those that don't know, there is now a chart being run for the top 100 science-fiction and fantasy books. The first edition of the chart just came out, and certain authors seem to be badly over-represented, and certain others definitely under-represented (not to name any names :). Those interested in redressing the situation may wish to take a look in rec.arts.sf.written to obtain details of how to vote, and then vote for a couple of your favourite books. Please note that I am not trying to suggest that we rig the vote, just that there might be those that wish to see certain books (such as TLR), placed above the works of such luminaries as Weiss and Hickman. And just to inject a note of interest into this post, can anyone think of a really good reason why Trent hasn't collected the bounty on himself at least once? Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-05-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Gods and Serathin -------- >Saliya says (here, let me go get the book, I don't have it online ;)): > > It was our Masters who created the Craft, and among our Masters that > the first Names arose, the first small gods of what is called today > the Zaradin Church. From among the ranks of the Names came the > Great Gods, some Zaradin, some not; and it was among the ranks of > the Great Gods that conflict arose. And suddenly, little bells started to ring in my subconscious.... >Taking DKM's message into account, it seems that the Serathin, for >whatever reason, through whatever means, either took corporal form, or >otherwise merged with living beings. > >There is, of course, a lot of background information that I'm barely >able to wait for, such as: what, exactly, is a Name? Saliya's >statement would have me believe that a Name is one of the gods (great or >small) of the Zaradin Church; yet the Old Human Race swore "by the name >of my Name" (or was it the "Name of my name"?) -- making me have doubts >about that (well, just how many of these gods *are* there? 8-)). See, I was just reading this Zelazny book last week -- _Isle of the Dead_ -- and there was this alien religion where the gods bound themselves to certain of their worshippers (making them their priests). This gave the person the power to call up the god inside them (sort of a loa thing). They bore the Name. (Oh, and did I mention there was one humaniform god in this alien pantheon? And that the Named people had a craft that they practiced -- really advanced terraforming-to-order and the psychic control of nature on planets they had built?) Things that make me go HMM. >We have the Name Historian, which I assumed was a guy Named Historian -- >but it could be a single title, a historian who researches the Names of >the Zaradin Church (probably a Church official, then, would be my >guess). > >And then there's the whole Camber thing -- he's a Great God, but he's >Nameless. And if the Names are Serathin given existance in this >universe.... If this was Isle of the Dead universe, I'd be tempted to say he had gotten picked by a god and then the god dropped him -- and just out of cussedness, he went out to become a god himself. But this is the CT -- so I bet Camber's story is _much_ weirder than that! :) Anyway, just 'cause Camber is called the Nameless doesn't mean it's so (see his meeting with Denice); it just means no one else can pronounce that modem scream he makes. :) I know that this Zelazny connection may be really obvious to others on this list, but I never have come across a copy of Isle of the Dead before, so I never made the connection with Camber. And even without the CT connection (or the connection with Zelazny's famous-er runs on the god themes, like _Lord of Light_ or _Eye of Cat_ or even the Amber series), this is a darn good novel and adventure story. Great ending, too. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-05-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Zelazny and Camber -------- Maureen S. O'Brien said: >See, I was just reading this Zelazny book last week -- _Isle of the >Dead_ -- Great book. Almost all Zelazny is, of course, but "Isle" is a little higher on my list than most. >and there was this alien religion where the gods bound themselves to >certain of their worshippers (making them their priests). This gave the >person the power to call up the god inside them (sort of a loa thing). >They bore the Name. (Oh, and did I mention there was one humaniform god >in this alien pantheon? I'm guilty. Looking back, I'd almost certainly say that the character of Camber Tremodian reached his approximate final form not long after I read "Isle of the Dead," when I was about 14. Storyteller followed not long afterward. >If this was Isle of the Dead universe, I'd be tempted to say he had >gotten picked by a god and then the god dropped him -- and just out of >cussedness, he went out to become a god himself. But this is the CT -- >so I bet Camber's story is _much_ weirder than that! Yes. >:) Anyway, just 'cause Camber is called the Nameless doesn't mean it's >so (see his meeting with Denice); it just means no one else can >pronounce that modem scream he makes. :) "Modem Scream." >I know that this Zelazny connection may be really obvious to others on >this list, but I never have come across a copy of Isle of the Dead >before, so I never made the connection with Camber. I've stolen from *everybody* ... but Zelazny and Niven probably top the list. Of course, I've read practically everybody; I've read virtually every piece of SF ever published by Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov (I think....), Zelazny, Niven, Herbert, Marion Zimmer Bradley, David Gerrold, Greg Benford, Joe Haldeman, John Varley, and half a dozen others; I doubt there's one I haven't stolen *something* from. >And even without the CT connection (or the connection with Zelazny's >famous-er runs on the god themes, like _Lord of Light_ or _Eye of Cat_ >or even the Amber series), this is a darn good novel and adventure >story. Great ending, too. At his best Zelazny was untouchable. He may well be the best storyteller the field's ever seen. **************** *** 01-05-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Camber Tremodian -------- Was reading "TALES.DOC," the monster file that has all my Continuing Time fiction in it (except for the current two novels, AI War & Lord November, because it takes too long to save the file when changes are made to it) -- digression aside, was reading TALES when I ran across this, not long after receiving Maureen O'Brien's letter about Camber. This doesn't exactly address her question but it was written within the last year, which makes it the most recently written material regarding Camber. This is the opening of "Song of Camber and S'Reeth," from "The Winding Way Home:" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ S'Reeth bar Ye'Huta awoke to the certainty that he was on the surface of a planet. The pull was strong -- full Santha gravity, and a bit. There was no thrumming transmitted up through the hard surface he lay on; he was not in a ship under acceleration. The gravity was perfect, evenly distributed across him, not fluctuating in the slightest; he was not in pull, in any sort of artificial gravity. His inertial sense was slightly disoriented, but not so disoriented that he could not have told instantly if gravity were being provided by spin; S'Reeth could have told how large the diameter of the object being spun, just from the gravity and coriolis as reported by his inertial sense. He was on the surface of a planet. That could mean many things, all bad: hadn't taken himself downside. He tried to remember what he'd been doing last -- gaming, upside, and a slissi dealer who'd tried to cheat him at the soro table. He wondered idly if he'd killed the slissi; he didn't remember anything after the house stunners had gone off. His time sense sucked death pressure. It said he'd been out for just under an hour, standard; but that meant nothing. House security had surely dropped him in a bubble prior to sending him downside -- His top hands were snaked together in front of him, and something tight hung on around his bottom left wrist. He cleared his eyes and sat up on his prison cot to look at the human who sat across the cold cell from him, radiating heat out of his face. "Your file says you're a pilot." The human was large by K'Ailla standards -- but S'Reeth had been off- Santha for a time, even for one of the long-lived K'Aillae. He had nearly broken himself of the habit, common to K'Aillae, of trying to picture humans as oversized K'Aillae without enough fur. Despite their use of Zaradin DNA, despite looking more like K'Aillae than any other species had a right to, humans were thoroughly alien creatures, and the better S'Reeth got to know them the better he appreciated the fact. The human was not large by human standards, as S'Reeth had come to understand them; only average sized. Black haired and black eyed, Kabhyr eyes without internal structure, pupils and such. Pale skin for a human, those parts of the skin that showed_which meant that the parts that did not show were probably even paler. Many humans, and most of the pale ones, darkened under sunlight. The man wore trader blacks; they proclaimed his occupation like a badge. The cell walls were mostly gray, with odd streaks of vivert and blue -- colors slissi could not see. To a slissi the walls would have looked plain gray. To the human S'reeth said, "Yeah. I'm a pilot." The man nodded. "I need one. You sign with me, I'll pay your fine and get you out of here. One year's service, Terran, from date of contract. Full pilot's pay and if you jump ship I post bounty on you with the SpaceFarer's Collective." S'Reeth scratched around his eyes with his snaked hands, thinking about it. "Pay my fine. I guess that means the slissi lived." The human shook his head. "I've no idea what you're in for; my agent downside found you for me.... You tried to kill a slissi? Perhaps you succeeded. The fine is quite large." Quite large -- from the style of the human's blacks that might mean anything. Trader blacks, but the blacks themselves, made of layered kinfin silk, spoke of money. Wealthy then, or else thoroughly vain, or both -- and young, too, if S'Reeth was the judge of human age that he fancied himself. Past a certain point they all took on a similar cast, around their twenty- fifth or thirtieth year, but this human looked younger than that. "Tried to kill him," S'Reeth agreed. "Bastard tried to cheat me. Dealer upside at the Sorsen Casino." "That's what they do in slissi casinos," the young human observed. "Sure," S'Reeth sneered. "To . K'aillae don't get treated that way." "Reputable k'aillae do not," the human conceded. "This does not cover your case. You are S'Reeth bar K'Ailli Ye'Huta, nihi Dome, a war dog and an outcast. You fought at Merenth in '983, at Corridan in '991, and at k'kchostqua in '01. You wear no paint, no bar." S'Reeth looked him over with something approaching monkey curiosity. "You've been thorough. Is this combat duty?" "Might be." "The Collective couldn't find you another pilot with combat experience? One who wasn't in a prison bubble?" Curiosity won through. "How long was I inside?" "What day did they put you in?" S'Reeth converted into the human calendar. "Last day I remember is Fall 44." The human blinked. "What year?" The fur in the small of S'Reeth's back prickled. "'04." The human's thoroughly expressionless features actually chilled a touch. "Today is Summer 13, 3020." "By Ifahad," S'Reeth swore, voice soft. He stared at the snakes on his top hands. "Weren't they going to let me out?" The human had called up the record of S'Reeth's conviction. The holo hung in mid-air between them. The human could read, beyond that, could read ; S'Reeth was impressed. Most humans couldn't even read Tierra, even if they did speak half a dozen languages via tap. "It says you killed three slissi. The dealer and two guards who came to aid him." "Good," S'Reeth snarled, but without any real wind behind it. The human waved the holo off. "No," he said finally. "I don't think they were ever going to let you out. The fine is...quite large." "You must be desperate." The human shrugged. "Not your concern, is it? Do you want the job or not?" "Details?" S'Reeth asked hopelessly. wouldn't have given them out to someone in his skin -- The human shook his head. "Can't give them to you until you're under contract. One year, SpaceFarer contract, possible combat. Combat pay retroactive to sign on, if so. SpaceFarer guidelines regarding definition of combat, Collective mediation in the event of dispute as to whether combat took place." The human regarded him a moment longer, and then said more than he had to. "It's not a suicide job, and it's not terribly likely to involve combat on your part. But a Platformer Caravan pulled through here six weeks ago. They saw action coming out of the Rift, and they were hurting. Every qualified pilot inSystem got snapped up." "And you don't trust your MI to take you on to the next system?" What sort of death trap was the man spacing if he didn't trust his machine intelligence with something that simple? All of things sucked death pressure before the computers went -- molar circuitry outlasted thrusters, the pull plates, laser cannon, most navigational devices -- "I have work awaiting for me at Sol. I need to be there in two weeks." "Two weeks --" S'Reeth bar Ye'Huta stumbled over the obvious implications: "You want me to pilot a lightship!" The man said, "I need a telepath, S'Reeth. And I need one today." S'Reeth faced the contract corder that had sprouted up in the corner of his cell, and said, "I, S'Reeth bar K'Ailli Ye'Huta, of my own wind, give service to --" He glanced at the human. "Cold Blood, Inc." S'Reeth stared at him, and the human nodded. Oh, Ifahad, he young. S'Reeth scowled in displeasure and said, "-- give service to Cold Blood, Inc., for the period of one year Terran, under the standard SpaceFarer pilot's contract, combat contingency clause, on this day of Summer 13, 3020, contract void in event Cold Blood, Inc., does not pay all fines levied against me by the slissi government before the end of the day. Public encription key is," and he took a breath and recited in Domenii, from memory, his 1,728 digit public key. He had to say it in Domenii; Tierra lacked the ability to scale the harmonics correctly. It took him nearly three minutes to recite the key. When he was done the corder said, "Witnessed and sealed. Registering with Collective Dictionary onplanet...registered. Second party, please step before the corder and state your name, company, and public key." The human stepped forward. "I, Camber Tremodian, principal in the limited partnership Cold Blood, Inc., witness and approve this contract on behalf of Cold Blood, Inc. My public key is on file with the Collective." "The contract has been generated. Would you care to leave skin samples as proof of individuality?" S'Reeth simply snorted; if they'd done nothing else while they'd had their claws on him, the slissi had sampled him. The human, dressed head to foot in trader blacks that were more than half designed to minimize skin exposure, said drily, "I hardly think so." "The contract is filed." The doorfield, behind the human -- behind -- fragmented. "You are free to go. The Banding at sus'kull'kussessen recommends that the k'ailla individual S'Reeth bar Ye'Huta refrain from further travel to any of the Banding's holdings." "A vast pleasure it'll be, too," S'Reeth snarled. To his new employer, he said, "Let's get out of here." **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Silly Questions -------- Here are some *very* minor questions that I was wondering about: 1) Was there any deliberate attempt at irony in naming Trent's persecutor "Mohammed", given that the historical Mohammed was forced to make his own sort of "Long Run" (from Mecca to Medina)? Come to think of it, both Trent and Mohammed founded religions, too... 2) In tLR, Trent gives Johnny Johnny the command "set null emote" Is this a nod to the programming language Forth (or some other language that uses prefix notation)? 3) I have completely missed whatever joke is in the "Revenge of the Jedi" references in the afterwords... Complete Shwing! So what am I supposed to be seeing? --- David S. **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: william lewis To: "d. k. moran list" , david silberstein Subject: Re: Silly Questions -------- [Interesting speculation on the reason for Mohammed's name deleted, since I don't have anything to add...] David Silberstein writes: > 2) In tLR, Trent gives Johnny Johnny the command "set null emote" > Is this a nod to the programming language Forth (or some other language > that uses prefix notation)? Actually, Forth is a stack based language and uses postfix (also known as reverse-Polish). Lisp and its siblings use prefix notation, of a sort. The command "set null emote" reads, to me, like (highly abbreviated) natural language. (Though maybe being a professional programmer distorts my sense of syntax.) Prefix notation would be "set emote: null"; postfix would be "null emote, set." It's hard to derive syntax rules from a three-word sample, but if it is English, I think it's just a particularly elliptical sentence in English's usual subject-verb-object order, the last part of which is in English's generally postfix noun-phrase syntax: [you] set [yourself to have] null emot[ion]. (Disclaimer: It's been a while since grammar school =8) ) Anyway, the rest of Trent's commands to J.J. are in NL, so it doesn't seem like much of leap to assume this one is, too... **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Just Another Question -------- There's a point in TLD, I don't know exactly where (thus showing the need for my nascent index), sometime after Sedon has awoken, where he's trying to take everything in, is shocked to learn of the existence of webdancers (presumably because of the dancers bit at the end), and then finds out that the best of the dancers are Players. This bit really spooks him (presumably because Camber is the God of Players). The question, then, is what exactly did it mean to be a Player at the time of the First Human Race? Reference is actually p96. Regards, Greg -- " Hello, Computer Lounge. Can I take your order please?" " Aaargh!" - taken from "The Evil Jane and the Phone, a Computer Lounge Tragedy" **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: taliesin@tartarus.uwa.edu.au, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Just Another Question -------- > There's a point in TLD, I don't know exactly where (thus showing the >need for my nascent index), sometime after Sedon has awoken, where he's >trying to take everything in, is shocked to learn of the existence of >webdancers (presumably because of the dancers bit at the end), and then >finds out that the best of the dancers are Players. This bit really >spooks him (presumably because Camber is the God of Players). The >question, then, is what exactly did it mean to be a Player at the time >of the First Human Race? p96: Two of the things which led him to believe that they might soon discover the Dance came from the language called English, from the proto-Splinter society of the webdancers. That they called themselves after dancers did not surprise hime; dance was a metaphor for the method by which webdancers linked themselves to the artificial intelligences they had built. So he thought himself prepared; the signs were there. And then, early on the fifteenth day of his imprisonment, the computer with which he spoke used the word _Player_. It struck him like an actual blow. He compared the root English word, "play," with the synonyms and connotations with which the word "player" was associated. Performer, participant, athlete -- competitor.[1] One definition in particular leapt out at him: _one who acts upon a stage_.[2] A Player, as the word was commonly used in this culture, was a computer user, a webdancer of transcendent skill. I've marked two bits above, [1] and [2]. They are important. The Nameless one, the tenth Great God of the Zaradin Church, is the God of Players, according to Dvan (or, more accurately, according to Storyteller, since he's the apparant narrator, but the Story being told is Dvan's). I'm hesitant to make too many conclusions from Camber's title, because we don't know what the connotations are. "Players" could be a literal translation (e.g., "le dieu des jouers"), or it could be a figurative one (e.g., "the God of Actors"), or something else. But from Sedon's reactions... well, things can get a bit confused, because we have time travel involved here. Camber is from nearly a millenium after Trent, but manages to become an entity of major importance to a society some fifty+ thousand years gone by the time Trent is born. Camber also has a strong interest in Trent, in Trent's time. We don't know (yet, I hope ;)) what his interest really is (although I still think Trent is Camber's ancestor) -- maybe it's because Trent is the greatest Player of his (and possibly any other) time. With Camber as the God of Players, that makes some sense. But maybe that reasoning is backwards -- maybe Camber is the God of Players because of the time and effort he spent helping Trent caused him to engender a huge interest in Players in general. Now, going back to the bits I marked up above. I didn't include it, but around that section, Sedon tries to explain what a Dancer is. One of the things is "actor," I believe. So, assuming that the word "Players" that Dvan used could be translated roughly the same as the English word "player," it's possible that Camber was perceived as the patron god of Dancers -- of actors. Now, Sedon grew up with that belief, and lived for thirteen thousand years with it. In addition, he *forsake* his god -- he turned away from Camber's service (or thinks he did, anyway). So, here he is, in a strange place, more out of place than any other human being, and he's just found that his deeply-ingrained theological beliefs may be wrong. That maybe he, the greatest Dancer of his (and possibly any other) time, is not really the focus for his (ex-)god's interest/hobby/however you'd describe it. Of course, I'm just speculating, and only one person on this list *really* knows 8-). Sean. **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Silly Questions Reply-To: ap007@Freenet.HSC.Colorado.EDU -------- >3. I have completely missed whatever joke is in the "Revenge of the Jedi" > references in the afterwords.... Ah, young Jedi. Once is Lucasfilm making trilogy, yes? Say name for third film is _Revenge of the Jedi_. But revenge, hatred -- to the Dark Side do they belong. And _Star Trek II: The Revenge of Khan_, to Paramount does that announcement belong. Young Lucas was wise. The film renamed he. Much money made he, yes, yes. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Players and Jedi X-Genie-Id: 4659289 X-Genie-From: D.MORAN8 -------- Sean said: >Of course, I'm just speculating, and only one person on this list *really* >knows 8-). And don't you forget it, buddy -- Everything I have to say on the subject of "Players," at this time, is this: There are no longer "dancers," the possessed. The cleavage of men into actors and spectators is the central fact of our time. We are obsessed with heroes who live for us and whom we punish... We have metamorphised from a mad body dancing on hillsides to a pair of eyes staring in the dark. --Jim Morrison ~~~~~ Maureen -- You give good Yoda. **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: System Crash... X-Genie-Id: 3930691 X-Genie-From: D.MORAN8 -------- Any mail sent to me on January 3 or 4 of this year was probably not responded to. System crash; the hard drive was scrambled and one of the things lost was the directory where my mail files are kept; I had to restore from backups. If you sent me mail you and did not receive a response, please try again. -- Dan Moran **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: More Idle Speculation -------- Just trying to somewhat clarify my own thoughts on various things: 1) It appears that Dancers draw down the flame and are sort of bound to follow it. Basically, they dance to the flame's rhythm. 2) Nightface's, on the other hand, kill the flame and so may be regarded as utterly determining that which they do. 3) Basically, one can see this as analogous to the difference between dancing and fighting (in terms of martial arts). At least if you rule out such examples as capoeira (which may be seen as a dance analogue). 4) Camber's way is not that of the dancer or the nightface (in that he didn't choose one or the other. He is a nightface, though. 5) From what we've been told, being a God of the Zaradin Church is a lot like being ridden by a loa. 6) So it might be that dancing involves tapping into that which was the Serathin and letting it take you where it wills, being a nightface involves consciously directing that energy (or maybe just entirely cutting one's self off from it, but I doubt this), and becoming a Zaradin God involves in some way joining permanently with that energy. And, somewhat unconnected: 7) When they talk about forgetting to bank Tyrel's fire (Denice's prophecy in TLR), they're talking about these energies (in fact, fire seems to be commonly use as a metaphor - living flame etc). Regards, Greg (just trying to make connections) **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The Sleem -------- >From rereading TLD again I noted how Sedon said the reason for his rebellion was to prepare for the coming of the Sleem. OK, well how the rebellion would do this we don't know, and it failed anyway. However, now Denice knows about the Sleem, if she believed Sedon. Well, I don't see Denice as being any more likely to enjoy having Sleem warships over earth than Sedon was. Perhaps this is something she will keep in mind one Ripper gets higher up in politics and it looks like FTL travel may be possible... If Dvan is still around I'd imagine he'd also be interested... My guess is that some variety of warning/preparation is one of the ways earth wins. -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Sleem -------- >From rereading TLD again I noted how Sedon said the reason for his >rebellion was to prepare for the coming of the Sleem. OK, well how the >rebellion would do this we don't know, and it failed anyway. The rebellion, had it been successful, would have put Sedon in charge of things, and he could have prepared Earth (or thinks he could have, anyway -- I doubt it). >However, >now Denice knows about the Sleem, if she believed Sedon. Unimportant, really. What is important, is that *Ring* knows about the Sleem. More things to factor into Ring's long-term plans. Sean. **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: Re: The Sleem -------- On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > The rebellion, had it been successful, would have put Sedon in charge of > things, and he could have prepared Earth (or thinks he could have, anyway -- > I doubt it). Except, Sedon din't want to be in charge of all of earth, only a small segment of it. > Unimportant, really. What is important, is that *Ring* knows about the > Sleem. > More things to factor into Ring's long-term plans. The question is, would Ring care? Ring exists to protect the US and it's citizens, the Sleem shutting us off from interstellar access is a bit abstract compared to the problems the US faces from more local sources. However, the AI war comes before the war with the Sleem, and so it is quite likley that the proto-Source will know all that Ring knows once the AI war is over, hmm... -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: "rebecca a. drayer" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Jerril Carson and Shana de Nostri -------- I've only managed to read EE as of yet, so I'm not sure if this question gets answered in the other books: When Carson chose a de Nostri subject to test the transform virus on, did he deliberately choose Shana because he knew that Carl was fond of her? Or was it more of an accident? ****************************************************************************** Rebecca A. Drayer * radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu First Year Medical Student * radrayer@panix.com Cornell University Medical College * ****************************************************************************** **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Sleem -------- >The question is, would Ring care? Ring exists to protect the US and it's >citizens, the Sleem shutting us off from interstellar access is a bit >abstract compared to the problems the US faces from more local sources. No. Ring's first instruction is to "protect america." Ring has come to define america as a set of ideals. The Sleem would restrict humanity, which would be against the ideals Ring has come to use to define "america." So, yeah, I think Ring cares, and I think Ring has probably got some plans about them. Sean. **************** *** 01-06-95 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu, radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Jerril Carson and Shana de Nostri Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA Reply-To: Mike Long -------- >Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 15:28:19 -0500 (EST) >From: "Rebecca A. Drayer" > >I've only managed to read EE as of yet, so I'm not sure if this question >gets answered in the other books: > >When Carson chose a de Nostri subject to test the transform virus on, did >he deliberately choose Shana because he knew that Carl was fond of her? >Or was it more of an accident? Carson's emnity for Carl (and genies in general) stems from what Carl did to him as revenge for Shana's death. I would say that Shana was chosen randomly. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer (PGP 2.6.2 public key available) Analog Devices, CPD Division [fnord] Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 01-07-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: More Idle Speculation X-Genie-Id: 8688332 X-Genie-From: D.MORAN8 -------- Taliesin (Greg Wheatley) said: >5) From what we've been told, being a God of the Zaradin Church is a lot >like being ridden by a loa. No. Being an *avatar* of a God of the Church is a lot like being ridden by a loa, though. **************** *** 01-09-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Even more speculation -------- Whilst going through and making copious notes about EE and TLR, I noticed a few things that I had, in the past, gone over without questioning. The main one seems to be the fact that everyone is so certain that Trent is a genetic accident. The explanation is that quality control slipped in the last batch and so there is a difference in the 17th gene complex (or something like that). Well this may be so, and I might be clutching at straws, but it seems a trifle strange that everyone keeps pointing this out. It also seems strange that there was only the one difference, and it only happened in Trent's case, since apparently all others in that batch turned out to be telepaths. It also seems slightly odd that no fuss was made over Trent's eye colour up until the point they discovered that he really wasn't a telepath. The question, then, is as to whether Trent's differences really were accidental, or whether they were the result of manipulation (bearing in mind that it was Storyteller's manipulation that produced Carl, and that if Camber had been mucking around with that which produced Trent, then most people would think it an accident anyway). Another bit of theory I have is that Camber and Storyteller (at the point of TLD) have been told by the other Serathin to kill each other quietly, without much mucking around with the course of events so far as history goes. This would account for certain periods being closed to them, and also possibly for them not being allowed to contact certain people. Basically, it would leave them atte,pting to wipe out events leading to the genesis of the other, without wiping out themselves or affecting history. Regards, Greg (who has only TLD to go on terms of the index) **************** *** 01-09-95 *** **************** From: "w. raymond alderman" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The Sleem -------- > More things to factor into Ring's long-term plans. > > Sean. > This, IMHO, is the $64K question. The Ring knew the the revolt in '76 was doomed to fail, yet gave false data to the various groups about the chances of success. So why did the Ring allow the war? Also, if Trent ever talks to Denise about what happened, then he will know that the Ring could have stopped the war from happening, but didn't. Hmmmmmm. Ray Alderman Coming to you from the heart of Silicon Valley, wraymond@best.com Downtown San Jose. Are we a Big City(tm) yet? **************** *** 01-09-95 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, taliesin@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (greg wheatley) Subject: Re: Even more speculation -------- > > Whilst going through and making copious notes about EE and TLR, I > noticed a few things that I had, in the past, gone over without > questioning. The main one seems to be the fact that everyone is so > certain that Trent is a genetic accident. I always assumed that it was part of the effort to calm the "rage" of Carl and Jany... These efforts always seemed to tone down the telepathic ability, and they just went to far... **************** *** 01-09-95 *** **************** From: nathan@health.org (nathan bardsley) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Book Swap TAB, EE, TLR, -------- I'm looking for a copy of =Emerald Eyes=. Willing to swap a copy of =Armegeddon Blues= or =The Long Run=. Anyone interested? **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: The non-CT stories -------- Well, I've finally had time to look at all the ftp stuff, -and- I just read the first 3 chapters of Terminal Freedom. Good stuff I must say. "Realtime" is one of the most wonderful modern fairie tales I've seen, well worthy of the likes of Bradbury. The rest of TF needs more to become clear, but the beginning description of LA did bring back many memories (I lived there recently for 3 years). It truly captured the spirit of the city. All I can say is wow! and a hearty thanks to DKM for sharing this. -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: Camber -------- In the stuff on Camber we all got I was a bit puzzled by the part about Camber saying he needed a telepath, I thought he -was- a telepath. Hmm, most odd. If he isn't, I wonder what his odd eyes are a marker for? -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: FTL -------- DKM writes: > "Two weeks --" S'Reeth bar Ye'Huta stumbled over the obvious implications: >"You want me to pilot a lightship!" > The man said, "I need a telepath, S'Reeth. And I need one today." Apparently he either wants some sort of special use of the spacelace tunnels, or he wants to do FTL without them at all, and needs a telepath for the job. And DKM writes elsewhere: >All right, I'm come clean on this one, though you might not appreciate >it, since it opens up more questions than it answers. The spacelace >tunnels are the neural pathways (rough analogy) of the Chained One. Is this where being a telepath comes in handy? Direct contact with the Chained One's mind? -Sol **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: FTL -------- > Is this where being a telepath comes in handy? Direct contact with the > Chained One's mind? > > -Sol Sounds good, but Camber talks of needing a telepath, at which point S'Reeth instantly decides that he must be required to pilot a Lightship. This is cool, but it doesn't seem like you really _need_ a telepath to travel between the various jump points (well those it the first Human Race didn't seem to, and neither did the Pinkerton guy). Seems like you just need a telepath for a Lightship (whatever that is). Maybe as guidance or to prevent collision? Further, a telepath coming into direct contact with the mind of the Chained One, would probably be a generic "Bad Thing". Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The non-CT stories -------- Heron Jsnead@netcom.com said: >The rest of TF needs more to become clear, but the beginning >description of LA did bring back many memories (I lived there recently >for 3 years). It truly captured the spirit of the city. My sister wrote that chapter, aside from a sentence or two. ~~~~~ Regarding Camber, He's not a telepath, not in the sense or the way that the House of November is. He doesn't (and can't) do most of the things Denice can do, for good reason. I'm tired of writing about supermen. One of the things I've done in later novels is create the LeftBehind ... "normal" humans. They rarely appear in the stories except as contrast. They're (by comparison) very slow and fragile. But this works at the storytelling level -- my protagonists, all of whom would wipe the floor with the likes of Schwarzenegger, view *each other* as "normal." Which returns the storytelling beats to something we can all relate to, and gives them challenges of a reasonable nature. **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: FTL -------- >Sounds good, but Camber talks of needing a telepath, at which point >S'Reeth instantly decides that he must be required to pilot a Lightship. No. Wrong order: "I have work waiting for me at Sol. I need to be there in two weeks." "Two weeks --" S'Reeth bar Ye'Huta stumbled over the obvious implications: "You want me to pilot a lightship!" The man said, "I need a telepath, S'Reeth. And I need one today." It would help to know what a "lightship" is ;). Sean. **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The non-CT stories -------- > Regarding Camber, > >He's not a telepath, not in the sense or the way that the House of November >is. He doesn't (and can't) do most of the things Denice can do, for good >reason. I'm tired of writing about supermen. Camber, a man who can travel through and otherwise manipulate Time, isn't a superman? 8-) >One of the things I've done in later novels is create the LeftBehind ... Hm. For some reason, I am reminded of the Neanderthals (or, rather, the false Neanderthals) in _Neverness_, by David Zindell... Sean. **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: "rebecca a. drayer" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The non-CT stories -------- On Tue, 10 Jan 1995 d.moran8@genie.geis.com wrote: > He's not a telepath, not in the sense or the way that the House of November > is. He doesn't (and can't) do most of the things Denice can do, for good > reason. I'm tired of writing about supermen. What exactly is the Gift of the House of November? I remember, at the end of EE, Storyteller saying that in Denice, the Gift of the House of November appeared for the first time in a human being. Is it just telepathy, or something more? I've only read EE, so nobody jump on me if this is answered in the other books... :-) ****************************************************************************** Rebecca A. Drayer * radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu First Year Medical Student * radrayer@panix.com Cornell University Medical College * ****************************************************************************** **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: FTL and telepaths -------- Greg writes: >Seems like you just need a telepath for a Lightship (whatever that is). >Maybe as guidance or to prevent collision? Correct. You missed my point, obviously because I was not clear enough. Apparently normal travel through spacelace tunnels is easy; they are well established neural pathways of the Chained One. Camber wants to get there _fast_, and so he needs a Lightship, and therefore a telepath. We don't know what a Lightship is, except that it is FTL and faster than normal. My brain then makes the connection: FTL involves traveling through some dude's brain. Telepaths manipulate brains. QED Lightships involve manipulating the Chained One's brain, resulting in extraordinarily fast FTL travel. (And unusual danger, one would assume.) Related thought: Our established telepaths are also telekines. It is (weakly) established that telekinetic ability seems to involve the "other world", though to what degree isn't clear. Is it possible that the Crystal Plain is also connected with the Chained One? Hmmm . . . Another thought: The Chained One is common to the entire Great Wheel, right? Could you find (or make?) a spacelace tunnel right out of the Continuing Time? Crazy speculations, I know. But fun ideas to throw around. -Sol **************** *** 01-10-95 *** **************** From: mace@lum.esd.sgi.com (rob mace) To: colomon, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: FTL and telepaths -------- Sol writes: > Apparently normal travel through spacelace tunnels is easy; they are > well established neural pathways of the Chained One. Camber wants to > get there _fast_, and so he needs a Lightship, and therefore a telepath. > We don't know what a Lightship is, except that it is FTL and faster than > normal. > > My brain then makes the connection: FTL involves traveling through some > dude's brain. Telepaths manipulate brains. QED Lightships involve > manipulating the Chained One's brain, resulting in extraordinarily fast > FTL travel. (And unusual danger, one would assume.) My speculations triggered by Sol's. The spacelace tunnels go from specific point to specific point. Camber needs a telepath because telepaths can establish a new(possibly only temporary) spacelace tunnel. He needs to take this non standard route because the standard ones don't go where he wants or are trapped in a way he needs to avoid. Rob Mace **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: FTL and telepaths -------- Sol writes: > Apparently normal travel through spacelace tunnels is easy; they are > well established neural pathways of the Chained One. Camber wants to > get there _fast_, and so he needs a Lightship, and therefore a telepath. > We don't know what a Lightship is, except that it is FTL and faster than > normal. > > My brain then makes the connection: FTL involves traveling through some > dude's brain. Telepaths manipulate brains. QED Lightships involve > manipulating the Chained One's brain, resulting in extraordinarily fast > FTL travel. (And unusual danger, one would assume.) Yep, okay. Very possible. Also possible, however, that with a Lightship you don't bother using the tunnels, you just zip from point to point. No need to bother with travelling between points. At a fast enough speed, this would make sense, and there's no real need to go busting new neural pathways in the brain of the Chained One. There's also the fact that FTL is so theoretical that DKM can say anything he wants about it and have it be possible. Basically, who knows? I still don't like the idea of manipulating the Changed One, though. For one thing, it assumes that those of Camber's time know that there is a Chained One (which is possible, maybe likely), and for another all examples of telepathy so far have involved the telepath to some extent becoming the person touched, while they touch that person. So a telepath hoping to manipulate the Chained One would become the Chained One for a bit (at least in terms of feelings). I think that this would be the ultimate example of being hurt through touching someone. Not fun. > Related thought: Our established telepaths are also telekines. It is > (weakly) established that telekinetic ability seems to involve the > "other world", though to what degree isn't clear. Is it possible that > the Crystal Plain is also connected with the Chained One? Hmmm . . . Telekinetic to the point of being able to fuse hydrogen atoms (in EE). The Crystal Plain seems common to telepaths, but as to it's nature... > Another thought: The Chained One is common to the entire Great Wheel, > right? Could you find (or make?) a spacelace tunnel right out of the > Continuing Time? Depends on how you define Continuing Time. If by it you mean that area contained by the Chained One, then I'd say no, seeing as the Gods are trapped. The idea of a neural pathway to outside of one's head also seems a bit strange (but then we're told the neural analogy is a rough one). Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: RE: The Sleem -------- I've been thinking about this over the weekend... I think Sedon wanted to be at the head of the rebellion because he wanted to take over the world; he seems to have had general contempt for those around him, so he would want to take control, and then (as part of ruling the UN, or a "freed" America, or whatever) direct preparations for the sleem himself. I also have to dissent from something others have said: I liked "Dvan's story", because it reveals so much about the old human race, the Sleem, Dvan, Sedon, and their conflict. Perhaps if you feel that tLD is primarily about Deniece, then Dvan's story may seem a digression. I took tLD to be Sedon's story as much as (if not more than) it is Deniece's, and so Dvan's account is a necessary part of it. One of the things that I liked about tLD is that everything in it seemed necessary to me, to advance the plot, explore the characters, or whatever. I've read a lot of books of that length that I thought could/should have been edited shorter; this is not true of tLD, imho. There's nothing I would want cut. **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: FTL -------- Sean said: >The man said, "I need a telepath, S'Reeth. And I need one today." >It would help to know what a "lightship" is ;). A "lightship" is a tachyon starship; they're not the same sort of ships that you saw in "Last Dancer" or the "Lord November" extract. They don't go through the spacelace tunnels. "Lightship" comes from the transition effect, a phenomenon called Holtzmann Ghosting, after the physicist who predicted it. Telepaths handle the jump to tachyon space much better than non-telepaths. This doesn't mean a non-telepath *can't* pilot a tachyon starship ... once. Even for telepaths it's not pleasant. See "The Gray Maelstrom." Normal ships traveling the spacelace tunnels are dependent upon the tunnels for whatever speed they make; some tunnels are "faster" than others, though not generally by much, and obviously, tunnels that go in straight lines are faster than tunnels that take you in zig-zags. Tachyon starships are a different story. After breaking lightspeed you have to accelerate like mad to keep your speed down; if your engines go south you will drop to a lower energy state, meaning, in effect, that you will shortly be moving at infinite speed, becoming One with the All, in the most literal sense. Also, the faster you go in t-space (as opposed to the outside world) the more time passes *in* t-space. I worked out the equations once a long long time ago, and before I publish stories involving t-space I'll have to do it again -- but roughly, if you want to go to the center of the galaxy in a day by realspace standards, it'll take you a million years shiptime; if you want to get there in a month, it'll take you a thousand years shiptime; if you want to get there in a year, it'll take you ten years. As you might guess, tachyon starships get old *fast* -- and people almost always go into stasis during the trips. And, of course, that "day-to-the-center-of-the-galaxy" time assumes you have engine power sufficient to decelerate yourself back down from a ferociously high multiple of C. Those are the ground rules. **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Page Frames & "Pagers" -------- Sol said: >Another thought: The Chained One is common to the entire Great Wheel, >right? Could you find (or make?) a spacelace tunnel right out of the >Continuing Time? The following scene is currently in "AI War;" it may very well be taken out, though, since it's has absolutely nothing to do with the flow of "AI War" and it breaks up the action in a Really Big Way -- and then doesn't get paid off at all. ~~~~~~~~~~ Marius opened the closet leading to the store room, and moved aside a bolt of cloth that had been propped up against the far wall. The Page frame had been placed a tenth of a centimeter over the surface of the wall; Marius leaned into it. Had he been surprised in the act, it would have looked as though he were attempting to push his head and shoulders through the wall. The frame resisted for a second; it was only the fourth time the frame had ever been activated, and it was still weak. Left to itself it would vanish within another three or four months. Then the frame opened up all at once and Marius took a quick, off-balance step, and found himself inside the pager Ken Selvren, sitting in the gray maelstrom of intertime. His inskin Praxcelis unit came to life. After four months with no input except that provided by his five senses, the sensation was strange. The webslingers -- Players, Marius corrected himself -- of this timeline had come up with a particularly apt word for it: datastarve. LIGHTS, said Marius. GRAVITY. The pager's gravity came up around him, and Marius glanced at the the reports the pager's data banks had stored during the last four months. Nothing of note; no pagers had passed through this section of the Great Wheel since he had approached this Page, and inserted a Page frame into it. That was not surprising: so far as Base Timeline knew, only Base Timeline and the Walks-Far had technology that allowed them to cross the Pages of Time, to navigate the Great Wheel of Existence. Base Timeline was north of the Page -- the very odd Page -- where Marius had spent the last four months; and the Walks-Far were further north yet. Base Timeline would not have sent a pager after him -- he was not due back from this scouting expedition for another two months -- and the Walks-Far would have had to get by Base Timeline to get a pager this far south. In which case Base Timeline would no longer have existed. Marius sank into the command chair. Acceleration webbing wrapped itself around him automatically; he thought briefly that the impact fields this timeline had developed should be imported to Base Timeline, promptly. His eyes dropped shut as the pager disconnected the frame that had floated inside the Temple of Eris's store room for the last six months, and began composing his report as the Ken Selvren's transfer engines warmed up. .> The swept north across the Pages of Time as Marius d'Arsennette, Commander, Page Force Intelligence, wrote his report. **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The non-CT stories -------- Seth again: >Camber, a man who can travel through and otherwise manipulate Time, isn't a >superman? 8-) Guilty, of course -- though not in the first six books about him. In 7 & 8, yeah, guilty as charged. >Hm. For some reason, I am reminded of the Neanderthals (or, rather, the >false Neanderthals) in _Neverness_, by David Zindell... Hell of a book. _Neverness_ and _Broken God_ are major league kick ass writing. They remind me of me except with less action and more Deep Thoughts -- which is not a bad thing but has probably impacted his sales. He and I are certainly working with the same stuff. **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: Re: Page Frames & "Pagers" -------- I _really like_ the scene with Marius visiting the CT timeline. Not having seen _The AI War_ I can't comment except to say these kind of odd outside details are part of what make the Continuing Time so special for me. There is always the sense that much more is going on than -anyone- knows about. Time travelers, dimension travelers, 50,000 year old would-be conquerors... My only question is why Marius's Praxcelis Inskin would be off-line for his visit to the CT timeline. It would seem that having an in into the Web would be -very- useful for a visiting agent. I'm going to love The AI War, it sounds great! -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-11-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Humans and Supermen -------- While reading the discussion about Camber not being a telepath, and the talk about many of the main CT folks being "supermen" a number of ideas occurred to me. First off all, it seems likely that by the time of Tyrel November (and more so by Camber's time) there would be quite a number of "supermen". The Rebs and the Claw seem to have made quite a number of non-telepathic Genies, some of whom will have had children. In addition, there will be parents who will want Genie children once the fear/hatred of Genies dies down. Trentist parents might be especially likely to do this. After a few hundred years there would most likely be -lots- of folks who either were Genies, or who had ancestors who were. I also wonder how many non-November telepaths there are among humanity at Tyrel's or Camber's time. All it would take is a few skin samples form any of the Novembers and more telepaths... I doubt they'd be common, but many human governments might want to have a couple around. As far a characters being "supermen" there are several types of supermen, there are those like Trent, and Denice who were just "born better", but there are others like the more skilled nightfaces who got that way by training. My reading of it is of the 4 famous humans, Daniel and Trent are Genies, Camber is ...something... and Ola Blue is simply a remarkably talented ordinary human. So, I don't think there needs be worry about humans coming in 2nd. -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Chained One -- -------- Taliesin said: >I still don't like the idea of manipulating the Changed One, though. Me neither. Wouldn't be safe. >For one thing, it assumes that those of Camber's time know that there is a >Chained One (which is possible, maybe likely), and for another all It's a tenet of The Church of His Return that Trent is an Envoy, as the Chained One was. This is an article of faith -- and well into the Fourth Milllenium sensible people are skeptical about it. (Both about the idea that Trent is an Envoy, and that there *are* such things as "Envoys of Balance," or "Chained Ones." Physicists are the worst.) >So a telepath >hoping to manipulate the Chained One would become the Chained One for a >bit (at least in terms of feelings). How would *you* feel after having been bound to a great Wheel through some (carefully unspecified) but very high number of Universal Lifetimes? I think you might safely asssume that the Envoy of Balance is ... Not Happy. With "The first million years," said Marvin, "those were the worst. And the next million, they were no picnic either. After that I went into a bit of a decline." **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Camber, Page-turners etc -------- While I'm in a speculative mood, does anyone care to play around with the idea that the cause of the enmity between Camber and Storyteller has something to do with S'Reeth (and I'm betting on Storyteller killing S'Reeth)? To my mind the title "The Song of Camber and S'Reeth" sort of hints at something along those lines, although "The Lay of Camber and S'Reeth" would be a damn site more conclusive. I admit that I'm reaching pretty far on this one, though. Incidentally, is anyone else curious as to whether the fact that all those we know of the House of November have names ending with "el", is significant. I mean, we have Daniel, Tyrel, Chay'ell. Is this even intentional? And while I'm writing, (and this is a question for DKM) just what is the Continuing Time? I assume that it's a series of timelines linked by certain events (possibly linked by the fact that the Gods have access to those timelines), but is it also bounded by specific dates? This question, incidentally, arises out of the fact that in the Page excerpt, DKM seems to be saying that the Praxcelis timeline is outside the CT. Presumably, then, the CT is a subset of the Great Wheel, but just what kind of subset. Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: "mike rosenberg" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Camber, Page-turners etc -------- i thought the continuing time was simply a (very long) period of time which was undisturbed by the time wars. mike On Jan 11, 12:36pm, Greg Wheatley wrote: > Subject: Camber, Page-turners etc > And while I'm writing, (and this is a question for DKM) just what is > the Continuing Time? I assume that it's a series of timelines linked by > certain events (possibly linked by the fact that the Gods have access to > those timelines), but is it also bounded by specific dates? This > question, incidentally, arises out of the fact that in the Page excerpt, > DKM seems to be saying that the Praxcelis timeline is outside the CT. > Presumably, then, the CT is a subset of the Great Wheel, but just what > kind of subset. **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: Page Frames & "Pagers" -------- On Tue, 10 Jan 1995 22:41:21 -0800 (PST) you said: > My only question is why Marius's Praxcelis Inskin would be >off-line for his visit to the CT timeline. It would seem that having an >in into the Web would be -very- useful for a visiting agent. Probably because he has to keep a low profile - just imagine how (1) DataWatch (2) Players (3) AIs - might all react to a weird new Image dancing in the net. If *anyone* figured out who he was.... Hmm. Also, aren't inskins illegal? And for that matter - isn't a Praxcelis an AI? He would definitely be in trouble if anyone found out. ---- David S **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Names of Things, or -------- -- the "el" you say. TALIESIN said: > Incidentally, is anyone else curious as to whether the fact that all >those we know of the House of November have names ending with "el", is >significant. I mean, we have Daniel, Tyrel, Chay'ell. Is this even >intentional? Not intentional. Novembers mentioned so far in print are Daniel, Chai'ell, and Tyrel; but in the "Lord November" exerpt available at the various FTP sites is mention of Richard, Lorn, and P'Rythan. "Chauki November" is the working title of one of the stories listed in the titles timeline I've posted. Of the 300-odd Novembers listed in the Encyclopedia, six have names ending in "el." Of course most of those characters I couldn't tell you a thing about; they're background characters who appear in geneologies and such. ~~~~~~~~~~ The Continuing Time is simply the name of the period of time between 62,000 B.C. and (roughly) 12,000 A.D. As shorthand I've used it (and people in the stories will use it) as the name of that timeline of universe; but it's just shorthand. When Volume One of The Tales of the Continuing Time is finally collected and published some year, a fair-sized chunk of it will be taking place *before* the Continuing Time begins ... but I don't intend to change the title of the book to "Tales of the Continuing Time, plus some stuff before then, Volume One." **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, d.moran8@genie.geis.com Subject: Kabhyr Eyes -------- I have to ask, what is the story behind Camber's eyes? I assume they were created sometime around Tyrel's time (from a comment Camber made about no one having them until about 500 years after the 21st Cen.) I'm wondering what they do, and why (other than the obvious cosmetic reasons of "hey that looks really cool") they were created, or possibly evolved. The ever curious -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Kabhyr Eyes -------- JSNEAD@NETCOM.COM asked: >I have to ask, what is the story behind Camber's eyes? I assume they were >created sometime around Tyrel's time (from a comment Camber made about no >one having them until about 500 years after the 21st Cen.) I'm wondering >what they do, and why (other than the obvious cosmetic reasons of "hey >that looks really cool") they were created, or possibly evolved. They're created. They're just improved eyes; they absorb electromagnetic radiation across a wide spectrum, which is why they're black. (They're black between radio and the x-ray range, for what it's worth.) They lack internal structure -- they don't focus the way our eyes do. Light striking the surface of the eyeball is transmitted directly, with very high resolution, to the visual cortex. Even unreconstructed humans can make use of them; Kabhyr eyes are "backward compatible." They'll send data across the optic nerve at the highest bandwidth the visual cortex on the receiving end can handle. **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: rodrick su To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The different pages on the Wheel -------- This morning I flip through the Last Dancer and look at the map of the Wheel. Walk Far Empire's Page is shown as well as AB & CT. But no mention of Baseline Page. Also, I hyphothesise that the ability to traverse between pages cannot be develope in the Wild Zone since Time War is possible there. Thus, the traveler from the Baseline Page cannot go backward in time, but between time. [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ] [ rsu@primnet.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: FTL and telepaths -------- >> Related thought: Our established telepaths are also telekines. It is >> (weakly) established that telekinetic ability seems to involve the >> "other world", though to what degree isn't clear. Is it possible that >> the Crystal Plain is also connected with the Chained One? Hmmm . . . > >Telekinetic to the point of being able to fuse hydrogen atoms (in EE). >The Crystal Plain seems common to telepaths, but as to it's nature... Camber hangs out there as well, right? Though my impression is that he doesn't quite do it right . . . his not being a telepath might explain that nicely. >> Another thought: The Chained One is common to the entire Great Wheel, >> right? Could you find (or make?) a spacelace tunnel right out of the >> Continuing Time? > >Depends on how you define Continuing Time. If by it you mean that area >contained by the Chained One, then I'd say no, seeing as the Gods are >trapped. The idea of a neural pathway to outside of one's head also >seems a bit strange (but then we're told the neural analogy is a rough >one). Until seeing DKM's recent posts, I'd always thought it to be just that one universe in which our stories (EE, TLR, and TLD) took place. (Now, of course, it's that one time period in that one universe.) I've long known that Armageddon Blues was in the Great Wheel, but not in the CT, so I just assumed CT was a universe. What I want to know is how you can set a date on which the Time Wars end. I can see how you might find the date that the thing that caused the Time Wars is resolved, causing their end. But the name Time Wars suggests wars in time, and it's kind of hard to put a date on time travel things . . . Does this mean that Camber and Storyteller's fight is not part of the Time Wars? -Sol **************** *** 01-12-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: pickel@cig.mot.com, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Keys to Paradise -------- Robert Pickel said: >Also, did you ever write under the name >Robert E. Vardeman or write a fantasy >series called the "Keys to Paradise"? >Just curious. No, and no. Bob Vardeman did write "The Flame Keys," writing as "Daniel Moran" -- the book came a couple of months before "Armageddon Blues." He'd never heard of me (though I was a member of SFWA at the time) ... and once he had he stopped using my name. And I repeat: Not Mine. Never Was Mine. >Thanks for the time(and the Continuing Time), You're welcome. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: RE: The different pages on the Wheel -------- I imagine Armageddon Blues = Baseline Page; BP is what they call themselves, AB is what "we" call them. Very early in AB, the protagonist (also named d'Arsenette) is tutored by a bunch of aliens who have this kind of technology; I'm taking both of these as a hint. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu -------- Sol said: >Until seeing DKM's recent posts, I'd always thought it to be just that >one universe in which our stories (EE, TLR, and TLD) took place. (Now, >of course, it's that one time period in that one universe.) I've long >known that Armageddon Blues was in the Great Wheel, but not in the CT, >so I just assumed CT was a universe. Look, don't sweat it. The Continuing Time *is* the name of that universe for all reasonable story purposes. It's technically inaccurate, yes, but it's the way I use the term and the way the characters use the term. Not until we reach "The Time Wars" series does it become at all relevant. >What I want to know is how you can set a date on which the Time Wars >end. I can see how you might find the date that the thing that caused >the Time Wars is resolved, causing their end. But the name Time Wars >suggests wars in time, and it's kind of hard to put a date on time >travel things . . . >Does this mean that Camber and Storyteller's fight is not part of the >Time Wars? A truce, ending the massive "Everybody Into the Pool!" Time Wars, was brought about in 62,000 B.C. But notice that the second set of four novels about Camber Tremodian start in 3110 or thereabouts (I'm not firing up Word & the Encyclopedia, so don't howl at me; I know this is off a few years in one direction or another but even I don't have all these dates in my head.) "The Time Wars" series ranges back and forth between the birth of this cycle of the Great Wheel, into a *far* future where the Chained One was never released, and spends a good long chunk right in the middle of the 3 Billion B.C. Big-Time Time Wars. Post 62,000 B.C. there's no large-scale military activity, no time changes rippling up along the timelines and altering reality around people; but to say that the *conflict* has ended is innacurate. Camber and Storyteller's fight is the *conclusion* of the Time Wars. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Thoughts about the Time Wars -------- (This is the fourth time I've started this... maybe I'll actually finish it coherently this time ;).) My main thought concerns the excerpt DKM sent out a day or two ago, about the "Pages." The interesting part is that our timeline (the one with Camber and Trent and Denice and Tyrel etc.) is interesting in that the Time Wars have ceased. An interesting corollary from that is that, in every other timeline where time travel is possible, the Time Wars are still going on! (Mind you, it's possible there are others where they're not, or timelines in the Wild Zone where the Time Wars never happened, but I'll take the character's comments as valid.) Now, about the "Base Timeline." That one confuses me a bit. Only two timelines have the technology to navigate the different timelines, so I would expect those to be the ones with the Walks Far Empire, and the one with the ch'reesh (the aliens from _The Armageddon Blues_ -- I hope I got their name right, I lent my copy of tAB to a friend, who hasn't finished reading it yet). However, Marius d'Arsennette is presumably a descendent of Jalian d'Arsennette, who is *not* from the same timline as the "alien gods." So that is somewhat confusing. It's also interesting to note that the timeline navigation ability apparantly only developed on timelines where time travel was not possible. Of course, with only two (known) instances, that's not really enough to reach a conclusion, not that that's ever stopped me ;). I wonder if the Zaradin Gods can navigate the timelines... Last thoughts: Camber and Storyteller's is, according to DKM, the *conclusion* to the Time Wars. And something interesting happens on "our" timeline: the Chained One is Unchained. I wonder, with the Chained One Unchained, would the Seratheen be freed from their prison? Could that be the cause for the Time Wars -- some of the Gods decided the Chained One should be released, and the others opposed it? (And the purpose of the Time Wars, I've been assuming since Storyteller's speech to Trent in tLD, was to eliminate some entities, or undo some actions, and then it escalated.) Whee. Seven more months of this, then we get to talk about the next book 8-). Sean. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: Re: Thoughts about the Time Wars -------- My guess bout the "pages" extract from _The AI War_ was that Marius was -not- from the AB universe (which is well within the wild zone) but from the universe of the story "Realtime" which also featured Praxelis units, and mentioned that the "realtime" timeline was at war (or at least had been at war) with the Walks-Far empire. Marius and co. may not know about the AB timeline, so they may think only they and the Walks-Far folk are the only timeline trotters. -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: re: Time Wars -------- Sean wrote: >The interesting part is that our timeline (the one with Camber and Trent >and Denice and Tyrel etc.) is interesting in that the Time Wars have >ceased. > >An interesting corollary from that is that, in every other timeline >where time travel is possible, the Time Wars are still going on! (Mind >you, it's possible there are others where they're not, or timelines in >the Wild Zone where the Time Wars never happened, but I'll take the >character's comments as valid.) Supposition from this point sort of hinges on believing that the Gods can't travel on different timelines. What may be the case is that there is one Chained One, and one set of Gods. The Gods can travel between the timelines, but have chosen to end the Time Wars in the CT timeline for one reason or another. They then sit down, have a drink and a chat, then pop out to try and blow the crap out of each other on some of the other timelines. Those from the other timelines don't know why, of course, because they don't get invited to the cocktail party. Thus everyone else is left with warring Gods, and the CT is left alone. >Now, about the "Base Timeline." That one confuses me a bit. Only two >timelines have the technology to navigate the different timelines, so I >would expect those to be the ones with the Walks Far Empire, and the one >with the ch'reesh (the aliens from _The Armageddon Blues_ -- I hope I >got their name right, I lent my copy of tAB to a friend, who hasn't >finished reading it yet). However, Marius d'Arsennette is presumably a >descendent of Jalian d'Arsennette, who is *not* from the same timline as >the "alien gods." So that is somewhat confusing. "Base Timeline" will presumably be defined as the timeline from which the timeline travelling race comes from. In this case, it'd just be a relative thing. > I wonder if the Zaradin Gods can navigate the timelines... And just what kind of Gods are they if they can't? Very possibly they can. And travelling to another timeline would tend to solve the question as to where the Zaradin went. >Last thoughts: Camber and Storyteller's is, according to DKM, the >*conclusion* to the Time Wars. And something interesting happens on >"our" timeline: the Chained One is Unchained. Can you only release the Chained One on one timeline? If such requires the destruction of the Great Wheel, then I think we're talking a pretty much timeline-universal event. >I wonder, with the Chained One Unchained, would the Seratheen be freed >from their prison? Could that be the cause for the Time Wars -- some of >the Gods decided the Chained One should be released, and the others >opposed it? (And the purpose of the Time Wars, I've been assuming since >Storyteller's speech to Trent in tLD, was to eliminate some entities, or >undo some actions, and then it escalated.) I don't really think we know enough about the Time Wars to speculate. My theory, however, tallies with your own. We don't really know that it was the Gods started the Time Wars though, only that they were involved. Only concrete reference I remember is "I remember when I congress of ethical, well-meaning Zaradin began the Time Wars" - EE p240. Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: re: Time Wars -------- >Can you only release the Chained One on one timeline? If such requires >the destruction of the Great Wheel, then I think we're talking a pretty >much timeline-universal event. Er, yes, that was poorly worded of me, I would assume that, there being only one Chained One, one it is released, it *is* released. >We don't really know that it was >the Gods started the Time Wars though, only that they were involved. >Only concrete reference I remember is "I remember when I congress of >ethical, well-meaning Zaradin began the Time Wars" - EE p240. I was going to quote that at you, but see that you already quoted it. In other words, yes, I think we can take it for granted that the Zaradin Gods started the Time Wars. There's also the quote in tLD, when Saliya is telling Dvan about history, and mentions that the Time Wars were the strife among the Great Gods. Sean. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: "rebecca a. drayer" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts about the Time Wars -------- On Thu, 12 Jan 1995, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >Now, about the "Base Timeline." That one confuses me a bit. Only two >timelines have the technology to navigate the different timelines, so I >would expect those to be the ones with the Walks Far Empire, and the one >with the ch'reesh (the aliens from _The Armageddon Blues_ -- I hope I >got their name right, I lent my copy of tAB to a friend, who hasn't >finished reading it yet). However, Marius d'Arsennette is presumably a >descendent of Jalian d'Arsennette, who is *not* from the same timline as >the "alien gods." So that is somewhat confusing. Jalian d'Arsennette was ken Selvren, right? Does that mean that _The Ring_ can fit into the CT? I have to say that, although many people didn't care for it, I really enjoyed _The Ring_. I especially was intrigued by some of the earlier events in that history, i.e. the Flame Wars and the discovery of Youthbooster. It'll probably never happen, but I'd like to see more of that storyline. ****************************************************************************** Rebecca A. Drayer * radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu First Year Medical Student * radrayer@panix.com Cornell University Medical College * ****************************************************************************** **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts about the Time Wars -------- >Jalian d'Arsennette was ken Selvren, right? Does that mean that _The >Ring_ can fit into the CT? I don't think DKM wants to admit that that book exists ;). >I have to say that, although many people didn't care for it, I really >enjoyed _The Ring_. I especially was intrigued by some of the earlier >events in that history, i.e. the Flame Wars and the discovery of >Youthbooster. I liked about the first half of the book. When I mentioned that, I was told that the first half of the book -- the part that I liked -- was DKM's own invention, background he came up with for the rest of the story. I was quite surprised when I found that out. Gave me a great deal of faith in DKM ;). Sean. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Time Wars -------- Sean said: >An interesting corollary from that is that, in every other timeline where >time travel is possible, the Time Wars are still going on! Yep. >Now, about the "Base Timeline." That one confuses me a bit. Only two >timelines have the technology to navigate the different timelines, so I >would expect those to be the ones with the Walks Far Empire, and the one >with the ch'reesh "Corvichi" -- Corvichi spacetime gypsies. "Base Timeline" is Jalian's timeline. The Corvichi came from "elsewhere," a long time ago; even they couldn't tell you for sure where they started out. >However, Marius d'Arsennette is presumably a descendent of Jalian >d'Arsennette Her son. >It's also interesting to note that the timeline navigation ability >apparantly only developed on timelines where time travel was not >possible. This is pure science doubletalk on my part, but that's roughly accurate. Timelines are "closer" together toward the north of the wheel; it's easier to go from one to another. (Near the Chained One you can slip from one timeline into another, purely by accident....) In the case of the TAB timeline, they knew (because Jalian knew) that there were other timelines, so they researched, hard -- and ran into the Walks-Far. >I wonder if the Zaradin Gods can navigate the timelines... Yes. The "Continuing Time" is the timeline the Serathin basically decided to settle in, many billions of years ago. >Last thoughts: Camber and Storyteller's is, according to DKM, the >*conclusion* to the Time Wars. And something interesting happens on "our" >timeline: the Chained One is Unchained. In my mind, the Continuing Time is "our" timeline ... at least until 2018 rolls around, by which time it will become an alternate timeline. I vote for no Unification War, if I get a choice.... **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Armageddon Blues/Realtime -------- JSNEAD&NETCOM said: >My guess bout the "pages" extract from _The AI War_ was that Marius was >-not- from the AB universe (which is well within the wild zone) but from Sorry. TAB and "Realtime" are the same timeline. That said ... Georges Mordreaux's appearance in "Realtime" is Officially Disavowed by the Author. Someday, conceivably, "Realtime" will become a book -- and when it does I'm taking Georges Mordreaux out of that story. He died in TAB. I didn't know the ending of TAB when I wrote Realtime with Gladys Prebehalla; and of all the stuff I've published, there is one piece of storyline that I can't weasel around and won't live with. Georges is dead and his appearance in "Realtime," 30-odd years later internally, is bogus. Aren't you glad shit like this doesn't happen in the Continuing Time? There's something to be said for having planned out twenty years ahead. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Time Wars -------- Greg (TALIESIN@TARTARUS.UWA.EDU.AU) said: >The Gods can travel between the >timelines, but have chosen to end the Time Wars in the CT timeline for >one reason or another. They then sit down, have a drink and a chat, then >pop out to try and blow the crap out of each other on some of the other >timelines. Those from the other timelines don't know why, of course, >because they don't get invited to the cocktail party. Thus everyone else >is left with warring Gods, and the CT is left alone. >Can you only release the Chained One on one timeline? If such requires >the destruction of the Great Wheel, then I think we're talking a pretty >much timeline-universal event. Yep. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Time Wars -------- >In the case of the TAB timeline, they knew (because Jalian knew) that >there were other timelines, so they researched, hard -- and ran into the >Walks-Far. And they must have known about the Walks-Far Empire, as well, since Jalian knew about it... >>I wonder if the Zaradin Gods can navigate the timelines... >Yes. The "Continuing Time" is the timeline the Serathin basically >decided to settle in, many billions of years ago. Oh ho. A reason for the ending of the Time Wars on that particular timeline? (After all, you wouldn't want to mess up your own home, if possible... ;)) Sean. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Armageddon Blues/Realtime -------- >Sorry. TAB and "Realtime" are the same timeline. That said ... Georges >Mordreaux's appearance in "Realtime" is Officially Disavowed by the Author. >Someday, conceivably, "Realtime" will become a book -- and when it does I'm >taking Georges Mordreaux out of that story. He died in TAB. Died, or... became something else? ;) Sean. **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Armageddon Blues/Realtime -------- >>Sorry. TAB and "Realtime" are the same timeline. That said ... Georges >>Mordreaux's appearance in "Realtime" is Officially Disavowed by the Author. >>Someday, conceivably, "Realtime" will become a book -- and when it does I'm >>taking Georges Mordreaux out of that story. He died in TAB. I'm assuming that also means that Georges and Jalian's joint hello to the Corvichi (at the end of the novella version of TAB) never happens.... -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-13-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Armageddon Blues/Realtime -------- DKM writes: >Sorry. TAB and "Realtime" are the same timeline. That said ... Georges >Mordreaux's appearance in "Realtime" is Officially Disavowed by the >Author. Someday, conceivably, "Realtime" will become a book -- and when >it does I'm taking Georges Mordreaux out of that story. He died in TAB. Hmmm . . . I'm away from most of my stuff, and so can't check, but doesn't Georges also show up in the future at the very end of "All the Time in the World". ("The future" here being will past the end of AB, or the main story of "Realtime".) Sean responds: >Died, or... became something else? The latter had certainly been my impression . . . Which, of course, leads to the question, what did he become? -Sol **************** *** 01-14-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Walks-Far -------- >>In the case of the TAB timeline, they knew (because Jalian knew) that there >>were other timelines, so they researched, hard -- and ran into the Walks-Far. > >And they must have known about the Walks-Far Empire, as well, since >Jalian knew about it... Did Jalian know about it? (Damn, got to get the rest of my books out here.) I remember the character named Walks-Far, but don't particularly remember Jalian knowing about the Empire of the same name. Since it's rather relevant to the broader discussion, I hope DKM forgives the "Realtime" quote, for those who haven't yet read it: > That was not the end of it, of course, for there are no ends in >realtime, only endless beginnings. It might be said, even, that it was >not entirely a good thing, returning the stories to the world. > Two centuries later, the scouts of the Human-Praxcelis Union ranged >far and wide across the sea of alternate timelines. Those scouts found >the time-line spanning Walks-Far Empire. It is possible that a less >imaginative people might have better withstood the genegineered, >insanity-causing viruses that the Walks-Far Empire loosed on them; but >it is also possible that a less imaginative people would not have >survived the conquest of the Empire. The Man-Praxcelis Union that >war; and the wars that followed. > As time passed, the manchines of the Human-Praxcelis Union spread >throughout spacetime, and grew in both power and prestige. > And everywhere they went, they took their stories with them. > But as I have said, that was not the end, for there are no ends in >realtime. -Sol **************** *** 01-16-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Minutiae ... -------- "The Cold Time," the last story currently listed in the "Tales of the Continuing Time," has had its title changed to "The Failure of the Map." I'm 32 years old. Recently it struck me that, if I were to finish the Tales within a reasonable period (between 55 and 60, ideally) I needed to create a schedule for writing the Tales, and then stick to it. This assumes that I will make a living as a writer, which I haven't yet; but I have good hopes that my next contract will rectify this. I've begun a rough breakdown of the "Tales," roughly (but not exactly) by Volumes, and once that breakdown is completed I will post my Amazing Predictions of the dates in which the Tales are likely to be completed ... if I can write them for a living, which is still, naturally, somewhat out of my hands. **************** *** 01-16-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walks-Far -------- >>And they must have known about the Walks-Far Empire, as well, since >>Jalian knew about it... >Did Jalian know about it? (Damn, got to get the rest of my books out >here.) I remember the character named Walks-Far, but don't particularly >remember Jalian knowing about the Empire of the same name. Yes, she did. When she met Michael Walks-Far (I think that was his name), she gave a start, because "Walks-Far" was how the Corvichi word for the enemy translated. I've got to find another copy of tAB, so I can lend one out and reread the other. Sheesh. ;) Sean. **************** *** 01-16-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Copy of TAB wanted, willing to trade. -------- Hi- Well, I don't have a copy of The Armageddon Blues, and would love to read it. However, I do live quite near one of the largest bookstore on the West Coast (Powell's books). If anyone is interested in trading me a spare copy of TAB for some other sf/fantasy book I'll see what I can do. I do know Powell's has no DKM stuff, so other than that, if anyone is interested, email me with a list of 3 or 4 books you'd be willing to trade a copy of The Armageddon Blues for. -John jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-17-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Publication Schedule -------- This is the timeline of publication I mentioned a couple of days back: Completed Works: 1987 The Armageddon Blues 1987 Emerald Eyes 1989 The Long Run 1993 The Last Dancer 1995 The AI War (is being delivered in Feb of 95; I've turned down two programming jobs and cleared a month on the calendar to complete it.) AMAZING PREDICTIONS OF COMPLETION: Crystal Wind............................................November 1995 (Except in outline this book has not been begun.) Lord November: The Man-Spacething War...................May 1996 (This book is about 3/4 done.) VOLUME ONE COMPENDIUM...................................Jan 1, 1997 This includes: Starcloud (written) Spacethings (outlined) The Revolt of the Living (outlined) The Time Wars (outlined_and it's short.) The Continuing Time (outlined) The Last Dancer: The Dancer (written) The Painsharing of Ifahad (written in an early draft, when I was about 21. Needs revision.) The Lord in His Castle (partial) Remembrance (partial) Driving in the Dark (early draft exists from about 20) Emerald Eyes: The Ancestors (written) The Shepherds (written) Emerald Eyes (written; I've revised since pub.) Faster than the Wind (written; needs revision) The Long Run (written; minor revision since pub.) The Last Dancer: Spring 2072 (written) Bordered in Blue (extensive outline; it's the longest unwritten piece in Vol. One, perhaps as long as "Emerald Eyes.") The Mechanism of Desire (written; needs revision) The Last Dancer (written; minor revision since pub) VOLUME FIVE: CAMBER'S WAY Young Camber............................................August 1996 The Winding Way Home....................................February 1997 Cities in the Darkness..................................August 1997 Camber's Way............................................February 1998 The Always Rising of the Night..........................August 1999 The Sheriff of Shokes (world of the Levels).............Mid-2000 (1st fantasy novel) VOLUME TWO COMPENDIUM...................................Christmas 2000 This includes: Players: The AI War (written) Moving (outlined; may be omitted from compendium; I've come to be less than thrilled with it with the passing of time.) Walk Against the Wind (written, when I was Very Young; novel about Malko Kalharri's grandson, Jan Kalharri.) The Last Detective (detailed outline) Crystal Wind (detailed outline) The Voyage of the Dauntless VOLUME THREE: THE WAR WITH THE SLEEM A Song as Yet Unsung....................................August 2001 A Tale as Yet Untold....................................August 2002 Legend..................................................August 2003 The House of November...................................February 2004 (partially written) Kinderjim on Earth......................................August 2004 (not even outlined; notes only at this point.) The Serendip, the Starclouds, and the Scout.............May 2005 (early draft exists of first third; it's quite bad.) Domain..................................................January 2006 (outlined extensively. These four novels -- "House," "KoJ," "Serendip etc.," and "Domain," are essentially the chronicle of the Exodus from Earth, told through the persons of Kinderjim of November and the House of November.) VOLUME FOUR COMPENDIUM..................................Christmas 2006 The Corridor of Dawn The House of November The Lords of Shadow (partially written) The Left Handed Hunter (outlined; may be omitted) Kinderjim on Earth The Serendip, the Starclouds, and the Scout Domain The Always Rising of the Night Honorable Enemies (outlined; may be omitted) Lord November: The Man-Spacething War The Face of Night (exists in an early draft; desperately needs rewriting.) VOLUME SIX: THE TIME WARS Comes A Man.............................................Christmas 2007 In Time of Legend.......................................Christmas 2008 All of the Things That You Are..........................Christmas 2009 In All of Your Brilliance: The Writings of Camber.......Christmas 2010 Platformer..............................................June 2011 (exists in an early draft) The Golden People.......................................February 2012 (extensively outlined; 60 pages) Anarchist...............................................February 2013 Monument: The Day of Its Release........................August 2014 VOLUME SEVEN COMPENDIUM.................................Summer 2015 Platformer Shiva (outlined) Chauki November (outlined) The Golden People The Return of the Ultimate Webdancer (outlined) The High Servant (outlined) Anarchist (outlined; fragments exist) End of Empire (outlined; may be omitted) Monument: The Day of Its Release The Failure of the Map The Encyclopedia of the Continuing Time.................Summer 2015 (Non-Fiction, published in conjunction with Volume Seven.) Tales of Old and New Earth..............................No Completion Date The Way off the Wheel...................................Summer 2016 THE COLLAPSE OF THE LEVELS Poison is the Wind......................................March 2017 Winter's End............................................Christmas 2017 Wild....................................................Summer 2018 TRINITY: The Revolt of the Angels.......................No Completion Date Earth Angel Sun Magic The Poet of the Apocalypse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note that this gets me out of the Continuing Time, and the related stories, before 2018 (and the Unification War) rolls around. "Trinity" I haven't scheduled; it'll be written sometime when I have the time between projects. This is an optimistic but very doable writing schedule; it assumes that I'm making as much money writing SF as I currently make writing software. We'll see if this proves out. -- Daniel Keys Moran, January 17, 1995 **************** *** 01-17-95 *** **************** From: felix lee To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: spare copies of The Last Dancer -------- I just spotted one in a used book store; good condition, looks like it's never been read. anyone in particular need one? and I think there might still be one or two in the local B. Dalton's. when TLD came out, I remember seeing about 2 copies in every bookstore in this area, and for some reason only a few were bought. (I snarfed my copy as soon as I saw it...) **************** *** 01-17-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: spare copies of The Last Dancer -------- >I just spotted one in a used book store; good condition, looks like >it's never been read. anyone in particular need one? and I think >there might still be one or two in the local B. Dalton's. I don't think this is necessary; it still seems to be in print. Future Fantasy (http://www.commerce.digital.com/palo-alto/FutureFantasy, or jean@futurefan.com or futfan@netcom.com) has tLD listed as "Out of Stock," meaning she'll take orders for it. Sean. **************** *** 01-17-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Last Dancer -------- >I just spotted one in a used book store; good condition, looks like >it's never been read. anyone in particular need one? and I think >there might still be one or two in the local B. Dalton's. B. Dalton's and Barnes & Nobles are the same company; B&N has Last Dancer on automatic re-order, so it should not be hard to find copies. Regarding the rest of the books, things are about to, by God, *improve.* Either Bantam will republish them, or I will. (I'm pretty sure Bantam will.) **************** *** 01-19-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Georges Mordreaux -------- On Fri, 13 Jan 95 18:43:00 UTC you said: >Sorry. TAB and "Realtime" are the same timeline. That said ... Georges >Mordreaux's appearance in "Realtime" is Officially Disavowed by the >Author. Someday, conceivably, "Realtime" will become a book -- and when >it does I'm taking Georges Mordreaux out of that story. He died in TAB. > >I didn't know the ending of TAB when I wrote Realtime with Gladys >Prebehalla; and of all the stuff I've published, there is one piece of >storyline that I can't weasel around and won't live with. Georges is >dead and his appearance in "Realtime," 30-odd years later internally, is >bogus. I hope you don't consider this ridiculuously arrogant, but I'd like to plead for Georges', um, "life". 1) In "All the Time in the World" and "Realtime", it is definitely established that Georges survives, and in "The Armageddon Blues", the issue is very indicative of Georges' survival. 2) As a character, Georges is pretty low-key. Trent, for example, is a charismatic powerhouse who tends to dominate any story he's in (I assume that's why you're killing Trent off; because you want to tell the Tales of the Continuing Time, not the Further Adventures of Trent the Uncatchable), but Georges' story is intertwined with Jalian's story, which is the story of Saving the World. The character does not dominate. 3) Finally, there's the 'continuity' argument: Georges has survived something that crashed eight universes and scarred the moon; I'd like to humbly suggest that the energy output of that event would have to be greater than your average thermonuclear detonation. 4) If you *really* want to kill him though, I thought of an ... *interesting* scenario: Georges, for whatever reason, becomes suicidal again, and decides to try for thermonuclear immolation again, only on a larger scale. He dives into the Sun, and that seems to be the end of the matter. Millions of years later, whatever humanity has become notices something unusual: our Sun is fusing hydrogen long after it should have started fusing helium - in fact, its store of hydrogen seems to keep renewing itself by 'spontaneous' disassociation of helium..... A rather fitting end for the "Enemy of Entropy". Just a thought.... :-) ---- David S **************** *** 01-19-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Georges Mordreaux -------- >3) Finally, there's the 'continuity' argument: Georges has >survived something that crashed eight universes and scarred the moon; What makes you think Georges is dead? After the explosion, he 'talks' with Jalian, and changes Praxcelis enough that Praxcelis becomes sentient. >A rather fitting end for the "Enemy of Entropy". Georges described himself as the "Enemy of Entropy." The 'map' at the end of tLD shows that the timelines farthest "away" from the Chained One are high in entropy. One of these is where the Zaradin Gods apparantly decided to relax and have a cup of coffee in. Georges was, I think, more than he appeared; I think Georges may have been another Envoy of Balance, or something similar. And I think we'll be seeing Georges again. I can't get DKM to confirm or deny any of that though. ;) Sean. **************** *** 01-20-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: dast@cunyvm.cuny.edu, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Georges Mordreaux -------- DASBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU said: >1) In "All the Time in the World" and "Realtime", it is definitely establish >that Georges survives, and in "The Armageddon Blues", the issue is very >indicative of Georges' survival. I know, I know. >2) As a character, Georges is pretty low-key. Trent, for example, is a >charismatic powerhouse who tends to dominate any story he's in (I assume >that's why you're killing Trent off; because you want to tell the Tales >of the Continuing Time, not the Further Adventures of Trent the >Uncatchable) As I've gotten older I've come to appreciate stories where people who die, stay dead; where sacrifices are real; where all you get is one chance. (Like life, not surprisingly.) I had a real tendency as a teenager, and well into my early twenties, to kill characters and then bring them back. But it's generally lousy storytelling; it lowers the stakes to the point where there's nothing at risk. As to Trent, you're very perceptive. He is that dominant a character. Originally, 15+ years ago, I planned to have him in "War with the Sleem," "Lord November," and parts of the Camber Tremodian stories ... and I think if I'd done that it would have been disastrous. Lemme tell you a story.... When I started writing "Last Dancer" Trent was not supposed to be in it. Then my editor suggested he show up in a chapter somewhere along the line, just to let readers know I hadn't forgotten about him. Seemed ... reasonable. So I wrote in the scene with Mahliya Kutura. And it was a very cool scene. A little out of tone with the stuff around it, but nice. So I started thinking about possibly using Trent during the TriCentennial storyline ... and before I'd blinked he was walking around in a hundred pages of my story. When the book was done, my editor, Amy Stout, said, "Dan, this book is cool, but it's *such* a downer. Couldn't you maybe put in ... you know, another chapter about Trent ... just a little one ... right at the end ... to let readers know that Trent's busy Planning & Scheming ..." And I almost did it, too. It would have blown the impact of the ending, which I'd been aiming at for well over a decade (Denice killing David) ... but I almost did it. And if Trent were to show up in "Crystal Wind" the book would cease to be a book about the end of an era, and would become a book about Trent the Uncatchable, looking good during the end of an era. And the same comment about other stories he might appear in. My fans would write to me saying, "You know, Daniel November's okay ... but he's not Trent, is he? And Denice and Douglass Ripper ... they're not Trent either." Now, this is one of those arguments I can't really argue with. But I can kill Trent, and I am. One final note ... I *like* Trent a lot better all of a sudden, during AI War. I was halfway into this book before I realized he needed to die for all the reasons stated above. (And my fiancee pointed out that one of the new characters, Jason Alexai Lucas, could do some of the stuff Trent was scheduled to do in "Crystal Wind.) And abruptly and retrospectively Trent has taken on a dignity and sense of worth that he didn't seem to have for me earlier on in "AI War." Abruptly what he's doing ... is going to *cost* him. And he's still doing it; he's making a *real* sacrifice, the ultimate one, to do what he thinks is right. Which makes me much happier with Trent, my story, and my universe. I hadn't intended to write an essay on this. I have a book to go finish. >but Georges' story is intertwined with Jalian's story, which is the story >of Saving the World. The character does not dominate. Good point. >3) Finally, there's the 'continuity' argument: Georges has >survived something that crashed eight universes and scarred the moon; >I'd like to humbly suggest that the energy output of that event would >have to be greater than your average thermonuclear detonation. That *something* survives that nuke, I won't dispute; clearly something does. But I'll think about your comments; they're sensible enough, and maybe it won't hurt to have a character come back *once.* **************** *** 01-20-95 *** **************** From: charles clark To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Files available for ftp -------- The files that have been sent by DKM to various people on the list via floppy, plus the writings he has posted to the list and the first two volumes of archives of the list traffic are now available in the following place: ftp://etext.archive.umich.edu/pub/Fiction/D.Moran The files have been cleaned up a bit by Sol and myself, mostly removing control characters that are extraneous for a unix text file. They are on the archive in gnu zip format, ie filename.gz. If you don't have an extractor for gnu zip format, get the files without the extention. IE, if you want archive.001.gz, type "get archive.001"; the ftp deamon on the server will unzip it on the fly. These are the files currently available: -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita staff 3097 Jan 12 15:37 README -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 5361 Jan 12 15:37 afterword.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 8879 Jan 12 15:37 ai_war.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 83366 Jan 12 15:37 archive.001.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 69468 Jan 12 15:37 archive.002.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 4508 Jan 12 15:37 badnews.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 13797 Jan 12 15:37 correspondence.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 11837 Jan 12 15:37 dream.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 15626 Jan 12 15:37 face.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 10857 Jan 12 15:37 given.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 92956 Jan 12 15:37 long_run.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 32522 Jan 12 15:37 lord_november.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 33806 Jan 12 15:37 realtime.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 11599 Jan 12 15:37 terminal_freedom.txt.gz -rw-rw-r-- 1 rita guest 3825 Jan 12 15:37 timeline94.txt.gz You can include these files in web links, since they can be unzipped in transfer. I'm no html writer, but I think a link something like ftp://etext.archive.umich.edu/pub/Fiction/D.Moran/dream.txt will work. -- cmclark [There was a copy of the intro here, but I deleted as redundant -- Sol] **************** *** 01-23-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Miscellany.... -------- As for the intro message -- I liked it. Very useful... A couple nitpicks, though. In the abbreviations section, the word 'abbreviation' is misspelled. Also, the bib section on _The Ring_ says "Silvereyes" instead of "Ken Selvren". And now for something completely different. My brother Kevin has read _Emerald Eyes_ and (at my urging) the bit from "Trent the Uncatchable and the Temple of Toons". I was discussing it with him, and he started talking about "those genegineered psychopaths". "You mean _telepaths_," I pointed out. "Telepaths...psychopaths... What's the difference?" -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-23-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Miscellany.... -------- ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) writes >As for the intro message -- I liked it. Very useful... A couple >nitpicks, though. In the abbreviations section, the word 'abbreviation' >is misspelled. And badly, at that. You'd think I'd have noticed before now. In fact, I just spell-checked the thing, and there were about ten errors. I've long known I can't spell, but I'd have thought I would have spell-checked that document long before now. >Also, the bib section on _The Ring_ says "Silvereyes" instead of "Ken >Selvren". Small matter of being far away from both books while typing. -Sol **************** *** 01-24-95 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Some questions from rereading tLD -------- First, many many thanks to DKM for sharing so much of his work with all of us. I (and probably a lot of other people) hadn't had much luck finding some of the shorter works; now I understand all the references people have been making! And the various other so-far unpublished stuff has been great to read, even if it is leaving us all in a frenzy of anticipation and speculation. 8-) All of this got me re-reading yet again, and I have questions from a couple of scenes in tLD. During the "conversation" between Trent and Storyteller (via Neil Corona), Storyteller warns Trent about the consequences of being an Envoy of Order. His statements imply that the Nameless One would not be against Trent in such a case, while the other Gods would engage in or resume the Time Wars to prevent such a happening. Why should the Nameless One (God of Players, Camber T in at least some form) not be united with the others against an Envoy? Does this imply some sort of connection between the Chained One and the Nameless One? Does it have anything to do with Camber becoming a God in the first place ("Camber's Way")? Later, while Denice is being held prisoner by Sedon, we learn that Sedon had the potential to have taken Camber's Way (and presumably become a God), but was held back by fear. It also seems that Denice might be able to take Camber's Way. She chooses to become a Dancer, although it seemed to me that she could have chosen to become a nightface instead. (She had shown all the necessary skills, but not the total mindset needed, perhaps?) Does this relate to Camber's Way again? Maybe those who could become either/both Dancers of the Flame/Nightfaces are the ones who might be able to go further/a different way? Other questions raised by these sections: If Sedon is "The Last Dancer" (which certainly seem right to me; the book felt focused on him, with Denice being involved but not central), what becomes of Denice? We know that many of her descendants (the House of November) are nightfaces...or are they? We see a couple of them studying at the UEI college/academy on earth, but do they actually become nightfaces? Are any of Denice's descendants (or _anyone_ else, even) Dancers instead? During her Consecration (as Sedon refers to it), the Nameless One states that it is time again for the Dance; it felt to me like he was implying more than just one Dancer. This is getting rather long, so I'll save my other (less related) questions for another post. I know that a lot of these issues are fairly central to the structure of the Continuing Time (who/what is/are the Gods, the nature of the Time Wars and the Envoy, etc.), so I'm not expecting solid answers (other than to wait for certain books, perhaps!). But re-reading has gotten me speculating again, and I'd love to hear what other folks think. Thanks, Windsor **************** *** 01-24-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Some questions from rereading TLD -------- [Re: "It is time for the Dance" speculations] Hmm. On the (night)face of it, it would seem that nightfaces and Dancers would be natural enemies. However, it would seem that the friendship between Robert Dazai Yo and Denice Castanaveras would lead Robert to spread the word that Dancers are okay. The same applies to Denice's students, if any. And since it seems that Denice's descendants will marry into the November family, and since Daniel November (founder of the House) is going to be a nightface trained by Robert...well, maybe The Face of Night will let potential Dancers go to the Academy. OTOH, the Face of Night people (if I'm not misinterpreting) function individually as judge, jury and executioner to errant Terrans. Which sounds like they've taken over some of the functions of Dancers. Things that make you go hmm. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-25-95 *** **************** From: rodrick su To: continuing time list Subject: SpaceFare Collective's longevity -------- From the blip released by DKM, I gather that by 3020, SFC is still around and kicking. Much more than can be said for the UN & PKF. [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [-----------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman''] [ rsu@primnet.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 01-25-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: TLD questions -------- Windsor wrote: > Why should the Nameless One (God of Players, Camber T in at least > some form) not be united with the others against an Envoy? Does this > imply some sort of connection between the Chained One and the > Nameless One? Does it have anything to do with Camber becoming a God > in the first place ("Camber's Way")? Probably it has something to do with the fact that his name is actually a scream of agony. Simply put, he's not very happy. Additionally, Trent seems to be one of the pieces that Camber is using (or at least relying on), in his contest with Storyteller. He doesn't want Trent dead. Especially if Trent being alive is a precondition for Camber existing. Alternatively, it may be that when the Gods set up the CT timeline as their place to relax and have a drink, Camber let his guard down too much and got stuck with the combined bill. Thus his scream of agony. He is, of course, hoping that Trent can steal the money to pay for it all. > Later, while Denice is being held prisoner by Sedon, we learn that > Sedon had the potential to have taken Camber's Way (and presumably > become a God), but was held back by fear. It also seems that Denice > might be able to take Camber's Way. She chooses to become a Dancer, > although it seemed to me that she could have chosen to become a > nightface instead. (She had shown all the necessary skills, but not > the total mindset needed, perhaps?) Mindset is as good a term as any. All depends on the nature of Dance as opposed to nightways, and to do with the nature of Godhood. Doesn't seem we have enough info. My personal feeling is that Camber's way is to do with choosing both nightways and Dance, though. > If Sedon is "The Last Dancer" (which certainly seem right to me; the > book felt focused on him, with Denice being involved but not > central), what becomes of Denice? We know that many of her > descendants (the House of November) are nightfaces...or are they? We > see a couple of them studying at the UEI college/academy on earth, > but do they actually become nightfaces? Are any of Denice's > descendants (or _anyone_ else, even) Dancers instead? During her > Consecration (as Sedon refers to it), the Nameless One states that it > is time again for the Dance; it felt to me like he was implying more > than just one Dancer. > Sedon gets to be the last dancer of the Old race, Denice the first of the new. Daniel November becomes a nightface under Robert's tutelage, but this might be because he's been separated from his family and is in Public Labour. Otherwise he might have become a Dancer. Who knows? I like the idea of Dancers going undercover at the UEI, but it would seem that Dance and nightways are pretty much antithetical, which would probably cause problems (and might explain Camber's pain if he follows both). Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-25-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: TLD questions -------- I don't agree with the conclusion that "Camber's way" is that of being a god. (Or a God.) That was, initially, my thought, but the more I thought about it, the less likely it seemed. As to what it might mean, then, I'm not completely sure, but... Well, I have some half-formed thoughts, but I don't know if I could vocalize them well. They have to do with a couple of different things. The first one is that, in the Zaradin Temple, Camber has *two* flames in his hands. One is the Flame, the other is black (I think). The Flame represents the Dance, I think, and the Dance is a thing of Life. The black one could represent death, and represent the nightfaces. So Camber's way, then, could be the merging of Dance (and the Flame) *and* of Death -- remember what's-his-name talking to Dvan, in ancient Greece, saying that the nightways was the next step after conquering the Flame through the Dance. That didn't come across to clearly, I know, but, basicly: the Dance was life turned into (a type of) art. Nightways is death -- the Kill -- turned into (a type of) art. While they are related, they are completely different. So Camber's "way" may be the combining of them both. The other thing was, basicly, various comments said by a bunch of characters, that lead me to the same conclusion. Sedon was never able to use the Flame as a weapon. Camber may be able to. As far as we can tell at the end of tLD, Denice no longer wants to be a killer -- she has chosen to become a Dancer. Note that if the flame in Camber's other hand was something else, then my reasoning may still apply, although the conclusions would be (of course) different, so I should get partial credit for having shown my work ;). Sean. **************** *** 01-25-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Flame speculations -------- >I don't agree with the conclusion that "Camber's way" is that of being >a god. (Or a God.) That was, initially, my thought, but the more I >thought about it, the less likely it seemed. Did I say that it was? Don't remember. Just think that Camber's way is that of both Dance and Nightways. >The first one is that, in the Zaradin Temple, Camber has *two* flames in >his hands. One is the Flame, the other is black (I think). The Flame >represents the Dance, I think, and the Dance is a thing of Life. The >black one could represent death, and represent the nightfaces. So >Camber's way, then, could be the merging of Dance (and the Flame) *and* >of Death -- remember what's-his-name talking to Dvan, in ancient Greece, >saying that the nightways was the next step after conquering the Flame >through the Dance. I see Nightways more as an alternative to Dance than progression. I'm sure night faces see it as progression though. My view, as stated previously, is that the difference between Dance and Nightways is that Dancers serve whereas night faces control. Dancers let themselves be possessed by the Flame and night faces steal the Flame's life to use for themselves. > That didn't come across to clearly, I know, but, basicly: the Dance was > life turned into (a type of) art. Nightways is death -- the Kill -- turned > into (a type of) art. While they are related, they are completely > different. So Camber's "way" may be the combining of them both. Not necessarily turned into art. Possibly just experience/sensation that is exceptionally powerful. Then with the passing of time it becomes increasingly stylised and becomes art. Until then it's not really art, just part of life. I don't know about combining them, I still tend to think that they're antithetical. I think of it as being more like managing to contain them both. > Sedon was never able to use the Flame as a weapon. Camber may be able to. > As far as we can tell at the end of tLD, Denice no longer wants to be a > killer -- she has chosen to become a Dancer. But does, for all of that, kill her brother. Interesting to posit what would happen if killing with the Flame was the right thing for her to do in a certain situation. > Note that if the flame in Camber's other hand was something else, then my > reasoning may still apply, although the conclusions would be (of course) > different, so I should get partial credit for having shown my work ;). > Sean. Since when did all of this become a competition? Do I get points for correct guesses I've made before? Regards, Greg (and do we get partial credit for technically interesting but absurdly incorrect speculations? :) **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: More stuff -------- Greg - I don't think Sean had seen your post yet -- he was probably replying to mine, or just airing his own views. Well, I originally wrote this song back in '88. But it came out crummy, so I threw everything out but bits of the chorus and started again. Here's what came out. Obviously, it's set shortly after the end of TAB, and is written by one of her employees (and assumes that Jalian didn't vanish into the hills immediately after TAB). Comments? Opal Eyes Lyrics & Music: Maureen S. O'Brien Insp: _The Armageddon Blues_,Daniel K. Moran I don't know where she came from, or where she got her name. She's in our records fifty years, and still she looks the same. We joke that she's not human -- we joke that she's not tame -- She doesn't care what's in our minds. It's souls she claims. REF: Opal eyes, opal eyes, Hunter of the ken Selvren -- Jalian of the Fires, oh, as ageless as the flames. Her hair is white, her knife is bright, her steady eyes keep saying, "This world's my hunting ground and not my home, For I've done things much better left alone." She stalks through city shadows, takes deserts at a run. Her aim is swift and deadly with arrow, knife or gun. She rarely takes the time to grieve for all the things she's done, But once she said she killed her world to save this one. REF: And yes, she loved a man once -- you hadn't heard? It's so. A blind man up in Canada -- his name was Georges Mordreaux. She doesn't talk about him much, but when the west winds blow, She'll call his name, and listen. Her opal eyes glow. REF: -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Various subjects. -------- Greg, Daniel November is neither a Dancer nor a nightface, and he's a fairly lousy telepath, too. Mostly he's just crazy. Daniel November's journal entry, October 27, 2114: Stole starship today. Fled Sol System with Bad Guys in hot pursuit. On board we have myself, former PKF Elite Bill Price, Eloise Troileac, Tom Sunday, Vee, Patric Santanna, and assorted Extras -- And one alien monster. The alien monster is sulking. The alien monster is, of course, "Picky Jim." Daniel November names him this not long after the above entry -- the alien keeps complaining about things. ~~~~~~~~~~ Maureen, Thanks for sharing the song. I like that. Jalian d'Arsennette went to Chino after the end of "Armageddon Blues," and founded a feminist retreat. "The Armageddon Blues" originally consisted of Armageddon Blues" ... and "On the Boulevard of Dreams," set ten years after what is currently the last scene in TAB. My editor, Amy Stout, didn't like "Boulevard;" she thought that it felt like another book, not like an integral part of TAB. On reflection she was probably right. But I've got 90 pages of manuscript detailing what happened to Jalian and Henry Ellis and Nigao Loos after the end of "TAB" proper. At any rate, Jalian's started a feminist retreat and doesn't return phone calls; Michael Walks-Far has taken over Sunflower; Nigao Loos is on the moon; and Henry Ellis has a house in the Hollywood Hills overlooking Hollywood Boulevard. Sometimes I feel Like the world is unreal I think it has to be There ain't no answers, Only dancers Who dance real slow with me. The Armageddon Blues Band -- "Dancer," from the album -- opening lines of "On the Boulevard of Dreams." **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu -------- I sent my buddy Kevin Anderson a copy of "Terminal Freedom," with the understanding that if he didn't like it he was free to refrain from blurbing it. He loved it. He gave up the following: "Terminal Freedom does for books what Pulp Fiction did for films; it is wickedly funny, beautifully written, snidely over-confident -- what more could you want from a book?" Put us in a good mood. **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- Hmm. Daniel November is kinda different from what I imagined. I thought he'd be a "Grasshopper" type. Obviously not. I can live with that! :) Loved that diary. Now to the subject line -- 90 more pages!? Wow. Well, I don't think I have to re-write "Opal Eyes" entirely. The easy re-write would be to put it back before Georges got himself nuked, but I'd have to throw out the last verse, and I like the last verse. So maybe I'll just fix the end of the first verse -- I don't think running a feminist retreat counts as collecting souls. I don't know -- maybe it's a very weird feminist retreat? Nah. It sounds like Jalian's done with manipulating the world. I'll have to think about it. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- Maureen, November is not Quai Chang Cain, much as I like Cain. His relationship with Robert is different and more complex. Jalian is retired after the end of TAB. She's done every important thing she ever felt she needed to. **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- >Jalian is retired after the end of TAB. She's done every important thing >she ever felt she needed to. I think preventing Armageddon is certainly enough for one person to accomplish, let alone helping Georges become whatever it was he became... Sean. **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: dave@tso4a.can.cdc.com (dave weil) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- SEF writes: > I think preventing Armageddon is certainly enough for one person to > accomplish, let alone helping Georges become whatever it was he became... And was that not enough for Georges too? I gather that I am in a distinct minority in agreeing with DKM here - Georges is (should be) dead. He had a long life, then decided he wished to die. Whether or not it was the permanent blindness that drove him to this or not is largely irrelevant. * He spent many years learning the disciplines and creating the situation that would allow him to die - years in which he would have reconsidered anything less than a firm belief or driving need. And so he creates, with much care and effort, the situation which will allow him to die. And you wish him to have failed at this? - Dave * Though I would argue that given his blindness caused him much less difficulty than the average blind person in our culture, and given that few people who become blind lose the will to live, hence the fact of his blindness can be no more than a proximate cause - his desire for death is something he would have arrived at eventually by some route. **************** *** 01-26-95 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- >And was that not enough for Georges too? I gather that I am in a distinct >minority in agreeing with DKM here - Georges is (should be) dead. Georges had a different motive. He used the explosion to ... do something. But *something* survived the explosion; it turned Praxcellis into a sentient being; said something to Jalien; and left. Georges comment was that it was time to grow up. Sean. **************** *** 01-27-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Blatantly off-topic -------- Wait! If Dvan lived in an Irish castle , he must have had Irish wolfhounds at some point. So it's on-topic after all. Last night, after swearing up and down that we wouldn't get another Irish wolfhound, my parents go a phone call that said a wolfhound had been found in the middle of a freeway, and did we want to take him? That was that. At 8:30 the rescue dog people came over, and by 10:30 we had decided to name him Cormac. He is very thin, and so is his hadir after they cut off all the matted hairs and got rid of the layer of burrs. But he is very graceful, and not at all afraid of people -- in fact he follows us around the house. He is also housebroken. Oh, and his fur is a very pretty dark grey. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-28-95 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, Subject: I found it!!!!!!!!! -------- I went to a used book store which I rarely frequent today, and there, on the shelf was a copy of TAB!!! Bliss for a mere $2. I hope everyone's Friday was a wonderful as mine. Take care all -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 01-28-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Mailing List Intro -- -------- Just got a letter from a fellow who says that the CONTINUING-TIME mailing list intro tells people not to send me fan mail. Is this true? I checked my archived mail and apparently I've never saved a copy of the mailing list intro. I've received that thing two or three times and I don't remember such an instruction ... and if it's there, I'd appreciate if it could be removed. I thought about sending this personally just to Sol, since he's the one who wrote the list intro. But I'm not pissed at him (it's kind of thoughtful, in fact, if he actually wrote that) -- but it's also not necessary. Right now I'm averaging about six letters a day (about half of them from the list or people I know are on it), and responding to them takes up around 15-20 minutes a day, which I can spare even at my most harried. So -- feel free to write, if you have something you feel like saying. -- Dan Moran **************** *** 01-28-95 *** **************** From: carlos rivera To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Hello everyone... -------- You will have all gotten the email from DMK earlier today saying that he doesn't mind getting fan mail. That was me that accidently sent him email before reading in the intro that is sort of frowned upon. At least we know that he doesn't mind answering it. I thought I'd send a short note intro- ducing myself since I plan to get into the ongoing threads as quick as possible. So hear goes with the short version of me (feel free to flame me if you think doing this is stupid, but do it via private email): Name: Carlos Rivera Age: 24 (without knowing my age DMK thought I was young, does 24 count as young) What to I do mostly: 4th year (final term YEAH!!!) Computer Science university student What else do I do: Pres of our local CS student's society (which takes this amazing amount of time for not a large group), listen to tunes, watch movies, read as much as humanly possible, try and spend more then 10 minutes in morning visiting with my wife and lots of other things just like everyone else DMK books I own (I'm sure like everyone else on the mailing-list I've read what I have many times each): The Ring (I liked it, I get impression that some people didn't) The Long Run (my personal favorite) The Last Dancer (I've only had it for a few months so I've only read it couple times, so maybe I'll like it more then tLR given time) Emerald Eyes (What can I say the book that started it all for me) After repeated searches for AB I've never been able to find a copy. Does anyone know if there is any chance of it being re-published in the near future? If not any chance of there being a copied offered on line? (Just send DMK a few bucks for royalties after download :-) Oh well I shall head to bed, Hope I didn't bore anyone too much, if so at least you'll know to just delete my mail as soon as it hits your mailbox :-( Sorry if anyone thinks the sig is a little much it's what I've been using for the last 3 years. One last thing to DMK if you read this.. sorry if I sounded star struck or dweebish in the email I sent you. I'm really just a normal guy (at least I hope so) who REALLY enjoys your writing. Later all... -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Carlos Rivera rivera@cs.uregina.ca "The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and Data is Life" - The Player's Litany as stated by Trent the Thief Quote from The Long Run by Daniel Keys Moran, 1989 ____________________________________________________________________________ **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: "w. raymond alderman" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Finding DKM -------- > I went to a used book store which I rarely frequent today, and there, on > the shelf was a copy of TAB!!! Bliss for a mere $2. I hope everyone's > Friday was a wonderful as mine. > Take care all > -Heron jsnead@netcom.com After checking ever used bookstore I see for the last 3 years, I walked into one the other day that had The Long Run. I almost fainted. - Ray, who, if you held a gun to my head and said choose, would say that TLR is his favorite novel. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Alderman Coming to you from the heart of Silicon Valley, wraymond@best.com Downtown San Jose. Are we a Big City(tm) yet? I'd rather be drinking French Roast. **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: "On the Boulevard of Dreams" -------- On Thu, 26 Jan 95 12:26:09 -0500 Dave Weil said: >And was that not enough for Georges too? I gather that I am in a distinct >minority in agreeing with DKM here - Georges is (should be) dead. If DKM doesn't want to write about Georges, then he won't. Simple as that. >And so he creates, with much care and effort, the situation >which will allow him to die. > >And you wish him to have failed at this? Well, I just thought that there was more *evidence* (from the context of the stories) that he was alive. Sometimes life doesn't work out the way things are planned. I also have perhaps less sympathy for his suicide (attempt?), given that he took out the whole area, sacrificing the lives of others *just* so that he could commit suicide. Am I alone in believing that suicide, when done at all, should be done in such a manner as to impact the lives of others as little as possible, let alone doing so in a way that does not harm or kill others? It would be grimly ironic if he did in fact have to live with the guilt of those people's deaths after having survived being at Ground Zero. Here's a few ways he might have killed himself in as unobtrusive a manner as possible: 1) Dive into the sun, as I suggested in my earlier post 2) Steal whatever thermonuclear weapons remain, walk into the Nevada desert, and set them all off at once (although my earlier objection (using the universe crash as a basis of survivability for Georges) might well still apply) 3) Steal some antimatter, and release it from its magnetic confinement in outer space. 4) Use his powers to *transform* half of his body to antimatter Etc. Of course, all of the above could be done in complete isolation. I think that there may be a way that we could both be right: Georges *did* die in the explosion. Whatever survived may take the form of a man, and may even call itself "Georges Mordreaux" for convenience sake, it may even have some or all of his memories, but is a different being. It may be a different *order* of being (as Sean suggests), or it may just be a high fidelity clone, but it is *someone else*. A new personality. The old Georges, that wanted to die, did in fact do so. ----- David S **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: Blatantly off-topic -------- On Fri, 27 Jan 1995 07:06:53 -0700 you said: >But he is very graceful, and not at all afraid of people -- in fact he >follows us around the house. He is also housebroken. >Oh, and his fur is a very pretty dark grey. Now, now. You know that's Not Allowed. No off-topic posts on a mailing list. As a penalty, you'll just have to give him a name from DKM's works. ;-) Is he particularly - fast? Call him Nathan Dark Clouds. Is he *very* hairy? Call him Booker Jamethon. Is he sort of soulful? Call him Reverend Andy. Does he walk sort of stiffly? Call him Mohammed Vance. Do things disappear while he's around (but nothing that can be pinned on him)? Call him Trent the Uncatchable. Is he sort of clumsy? Call him Emile Garon. Is he sort of catlike? Call him Cormac de Nostri. Is he an All-American dog? Call him Christian Summers. Is he really, really tough? Call him Robert Danzai Yo. Is he really, really cool? Call him Joe Cool. Etc. ------- David S **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: internet book information center To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: seeking DKM volumes -------- Hi, I am seeking all past DKM volumes to The Last Dancer. I have The Last Dancer and The Flame War but nothing else in local libraries or bookstores. If you have copies you're willing to part with, please e-mail me at ibic@sunsite.unc.edu with a suggested price. --Fred Zimmerman **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: off topic -------- Thanks, David. Cormac de Nostri it is. I hope someone has e-mailed Fred Zimmerman the appropriate part of the intro. If not, I'm doing it. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 01-29-95 *** **************** From: garth dickie To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Long Run Question -------- I just reread TLR, and I was wondering about the setup for stealing the LINK. It occurs to me (after reading this book I don't know how many times) that the whole business with blowing up the Rolligon so violently is *meant* to clue in Vance. Is this incredibly obvious to everyone else, or am I way off base? -- garth **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Top 100 SF List -------- tLR premiered at number 80 this week. It should continue to rise given the diffused average method of ranking the list uses, too... **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Thoughts on the files [1/4] -------- Here's some of my thoughts on some of the files that DKM kindly donated for our reading pleasure. What did everyone else think? Most of my efforts went into commenting on stuff relating to the Continuing Time. Note: This is broken up into 4 parts. 1) afterword.txt Mostly stuff that we've seen before - but good for the sake of completeness 2) ai_war.txt This is the first donation/teaser that DKM made to the list, and seeing it was really exciting! It is truly excellent.... and the last Trent book we'll ever see. I understand DKM's reasons for killing him off, but I'm gonna miss Trent. (Or is it? There's lots of stuff that happens between the destruction of the Casternaveras telepaths and the end of the AI war - we might still get a Trent story or two out of that. Come to think of it, what *was* the story of the enraged midget? :-) ) 3) badnews.txt Gad - very depressing stuff. Beginning writers: read this, and take it to heart. Don't let this happen to you! Bantam has a lot to answer for - they've been giving DKM lots and lots of grief. 3) correspondence.txt What can I say? One of the authors called it incoherent, and I can hardly add to that judgement. It made me think of an attempt to create in words what such surrealists as Dali and Bosch do visually. By the way, the file appears to be slightly corrupt - there are these doubled lines spotted throughout the text. This added even more surrealness to the file... It was interesting though, for the insights it gave in how *long* DKM has been working on some of this material - I noticed the following: a) The ship's name is - as I found out from reading the continuing-time archives, this is French for thief. b) I guess this is the first appearance of: Do you want to know a magic trick? Ask somebody to pick a number from one to ten. Then, run away. (Trent says it to Denice, while they're in the bath together, and probably again elsewhere) c) And there's also the dried instant Lipton iced tea with artificial lemon - that's Shiva Curiachen's drink, in that small Story in tLD. But come to think of it - would the company name Lipton *last* that long? 4) dream.txt This was amusing enough. I don't know why the producers would not have taken it - it doesn't seem like a particularly elaborate plot. And there have been *plenty* of Stephen King parodies on various comedy shows. ---End part 1 David S **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Thoughts on the files [2/4] -------- --------------Begin Part 2 5) face.txt This, along with the Lord November excerpt, shows the wonderful *scope* of the Continuing Time. I strongly recommend this for anyone who is seeking more background info about the Universe DKM has created/is creating. But be warned - there are *SPOILERS* for both _The AI War_ and _Lord November_. Nonetheless - I have some quibbles about the info as presented. Here are someof them: >Ola Blue >Human, Shiva, "Our Lady of Nightways" > Ola Blue is the deadliest human being who has ever lived, or ever will. >She is a , a Master of the martial discipline/religion of nightways. > If not exactly famous, Ola is, in some circles, quite well known. Born >in Eastersea, the last slum on Earth, she was a gang leader at a young age. I found this explanation of Ola's early life to be a little bit simplistic, and perhaps a bit lacking in consistency. For example: The planet is depicted as being an incerdibly contolled place. There has been one government, and one leader of that government, for over a century. Would a slum really have lasted that long? Given the ruthlesness depicted above ("Ola has said that if nightways had not existed, she would have created it."), and the presumed toughness required of a gang leader in a slum, how is this consistent with what is described later on as Ola's psychological shakeup after her first Kills? Is it really possible to achieve such leadership without killing, or at least becoming somewhat familiar with killing? >Barney Roanoke ("Barnes") >Human, a "wipe" > Barnes is a two year old in the body of an adult. He's well educated, >and shows flashes of genius; but is emotionally immature and lacks social >skills. Two years before our opening story, his previous personality was >"wiped" for crimes so hideous his only options were mindwipe or execution. I was just thinking after reading this that it would hardly be sensible to drop a mindwiped person right back into society - I should think that there would be a *long* (15-20yrs - remember, the people of this culture live *much* longer lives than we do) period of education and retraining, to make sure that the resulting person is "a productive citizen". Still, Barney might just as well come from a retraining center in the boondocks - he would be a mature adult, yet still naive about the power politics that he is going to be introduced to. ----------End part 2 David S **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Thoughts on the files [3/4] -------- -----------------------Begin Part 3 [ This is the continuation of my commentary on the fiel face.asc] >Arrith bar Ye'Huta >K'Ailla, a predatory alien; a telepath and Ola's pilot > Arrith is perfectly normal for a K'Ailla, meaning he is bloodthirsty, >dishonest, and bores easily. I have great difficulty imagining a species in which the above qualities are the norm ever acheiving civilization, let alone a highly technological civilization that extends into space. A civlization needs members who are calm, cooperative, at least partly honest, and dedicated to their various tasks, if it is to last. That's why I have such trouble accepting seriously such concepts as the Klingon "warrior culture" - a society *can't* be made up of all warriors. Someone has to keep the land, plan the buildings, construct the buildings, raise food, transport food, distribute food, make clothing, distibute clothing, (and in a technological culture) perform experiments, do research, share information, and implement the resulting technology. Bloodthirstiness, dishonesty, and getting bored with the tedium of some of the tasks involved would tend to interfere with social and technological progress (as has in fact been the case here on Earth, in our own history). >The House of November > The Lords of the House of November, such as P'Rythan, are telepaths, >genetically engineered. Hmm. Does telepathy not breed true? Or does "genetically engineered" mean "decendants of the genetically engineered Castanaveras"? Or does it mean that the house of November is constantly seeking to refine their genotype? > >The Mars Hegemony > The oldest true human colony, dating to pre-star travel days, is that >on Mars. The Mars Hegemony is independent of United Earth, and hostile to >it. The Hegemony has been actively opposing the interests of the Face of >Night for the last fifty years or so. It would be interesting to see some background and reasons for this conflict between Earth and the planet Mars. Just curious. >The K'Aillae > Humanity's oldest allies. A telepathic race, the K'Aillae evolved from > The K'Aillae have three sexes; male, female, and parent. > Parents do not breed, and breeders raise children. For the sake of consistency, I'd like to see this statement expanded and explained - I would think it would be something along the lines of: It starts with two of our principal locations: Ola Blue's house on the >slopes of Everest, What would the local Tibetans think of the house of a Face of Night being built on the slopes of Chomolungma, the Mother Goddess of the World? Come to think of it - *are* there any more religions? Are there any (*deep breath*) Tibetan Buddhists, Chinese Buddhists, Zen Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto, Sephardic Jews, Ashkenaz Jews, Erisians, Trentists, Roman Catholics, Church of England, Scientologists, Protestants, Wiccans, Native American religions, Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims, Sufis, etc., etc.? (*whew*) And how do they interact with the nightfaces? (You know - I can just see the Dalai Lama facing down Lady Ola... :-) >Barnes encounters, and manges to offend, a night face. Not just night >face--one of the eight living Shivas, influential and jealous of Ola Blue, >whom this Shiva feels has usurped his position with Shelomin Serendip: Hmmm. Would there really be this kind of blatant infighting among the Shivas? It seems kind of... petty. >singleship down to the Desideratan moon, and there discovers a Gigeresque Giger? eh? Who he? What that? -----------------------End Part 3 David S **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Thoughts on the files [4/4] -------- -------------------Begin Part 4 6) given.txt I found this story much too, too bleak, depressing, grim and negative. 7) lord_november.txt Another excellent excerpt. Again, wonderful stuff, showing just how developed the Continuing Time is. Here's some commentary/questions about the file: > Summer 26, 2676 Asimov. What does this date notation mean? > ...her eyes were as green as his own. He did not know her >name, and had never met her before in his life; but he knew that >he looked upon a lord of the House of November, a telepath like >himself. This is the scene from tLR, of course. How many other precognitive/ postcognitive flashes have been had by various persons? Denise also had that vision of 30 years ahead, in Robert Yo's house, and I think Carl had a premonition of the telepath's destruction. Perhaps more importantly - what does Denise's vision *mean*? >Tyrel was tapped, but his tap was designed for November's net, not Sol >System's Source; the Source's Place lacked the equipment to >decode the signal from Tyrel's tap [...] Would the Source really stand for such a situation? I should think it would never want to be cut off from a potential source of information. Heh. How about: Newsgroups: comp.dcom.tap.announce From: Source Subject: Dual standard implemented Date: 5/8/2600 For the convenience of guests and diplomats from November, I am implementing dual standard tap equipment in order to interface with November net protocol taps. And if anyone makes any cracks about "U.S. Robotics", I shall be Very Annoyed. >it would have lessened his enjoyment in her company, and so she >sensibly did burden him with the information. ^^^^^^^^^^ Um, is this a typo? Why would it have been sensible to burden him and lessen his enjoyment? -------------------Begin Part 4 David S **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Thoughts on thoughts on files 1 -------- > I found this explanation of Ola's early life to be a little bit simplistic, > and perhaps a bit lacking in consistency. > For example: The planet is depicted as being an incerdibly contolled place. > There has been one government, and one leader of that government, for > over a century. Would a slum really have lasted that long? Would seem to depend on whether the governing agency sees profit in retaining slum areas. One possible reason might be for the training and recruitment of those such as Ola, raised in an environment calculated to develop the more deadly skills. > Given the ruthlesness depicted above ("Ola has said that if nightways had > not existed, she would have created it."), and the presumed toughness > required of a gang leader in a slum, how is this consistent with what is > described later on as Ola's psychological shakeup after her first Kills? > Is it really possible to achieve such leadership without killing, or at > least becoming somewhat familiar with killing? Add to this that Ola is considered to be the paradigm of nightways, that the core of nightways is the kill, and this kill is supposed to induce some sort of tremendous rush. The psych shakeup may have been an element injected into the comic to humanise Ola's character, however. > I was just thinking after reading this that it would hardly be sensible > to drop a mindwiped person right back into society - I should think that > there would be a *long* (15-20yrs - remember, the people of this culture > live *much* longer lives than we do) period of education and retraining, > to make sure that the resulting person is "a productive citizen". > Still, Barney might just as well come from a retraining center in the > boondocks - he would be a mature adult, yet still naive about the > power politics that he is going to be introduced to. Such retraining would, however, cost. The govt may be unwilling to spend such amounts on those who commit hideous crimes (or simply just not care about the rehab of such individuals). Alternatively, it may be a big plot to do with Barney. Who knows? Regards, Greg **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: d.moran8@genie.geis.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Various. -------- That's good news about tLR at #80. Where exactly is this list published? David Silberstein said: >For example: The planet is depicted as being an incerdibly contolled place. >There has been one government, and one leader of that government, for >over a century. Would a slum really have lasted that long? You're assuming this is a priority for them. It's not. The Face of Night doesn't interfere in the day to day lives of individuals -- not because they have a philosophical objection to it (they don't) but because they just don't give a damn. Among other things, the Face of Night allows a "free press." People can whatever they want. There are a lot of anarchists on Earth, circa 2500; the Face of Night leaves them alone. Democrats, on the other hand, they execute with some frequency. >how is this consistent with what is >described later on as Ola's psychological shakeup after her first Kills? >Is it really possible to achieve such leadership without killing, or at >least becoming somewhat familiar with killing? I had to go back and look at that outline, because David's objection sounds sensible. Something that probably ought to be put into that file is that I'm not the only writer who worked on the outlines for the "Face of Night" stories. Two other screenwriters contributed outlines they liked. The background material is me, and no one else. But two of my friends contributed the following stories to the stories listed in the proposal: "The Cost of Living" "A Familiar Face" "No Truth So Sublime" At any rate, I think David's right -- *my* Ola Blue wouldn't have that reaction. This didn't strike me, reading that story, either when I first put this package together for D.C. Comics, or the second time when I altered it for a tv producer who wanted to try working with it. The *reason* it probably didn't strike me is that at some level the Ola of my books, and the Ola of the comics (or tv series) would have to be different people. I think a protagonist who gets off on killing (to put it bluntly) might work in literature, but is less likely to work in a comic, or particularly in television. >I was just thinking after reading this that it would hardly be sensible >to drop a mindwiped person right back into society - I should think that First, Barnes wasn't wiped on Earth; he was wiped elsewhere, and brought to Earth. The Face of Night doesn't wipe people it's unhappy with; it kills them. As to the why & how of Barne's wipe ... I ain't saying but I think it would address your concerns. >(Or is it? There's lots of stuff that happens between the destruction >of the Casternaveras telepaths and the end of the AI war - we might >still get a Trent story or two out of that. Come to think of it, what >*was* the story of the enraged midget? :-) ) This has occurred to me. For obvious reasons I'm *very* reluctant to start adding new stories to the Tales ... but I might go back for a Trent short story or two at some point. There's certainly material, during his time in the Fringe, and again between 2070-2076. Re "Correspondence:" >It was interesting though, for the insights it gave in how *long* DKM >has been working on some of this material - I noticed the following: "Correspondence," not surprisingly, arose out of a series of letters my sister and I wrote to one another when she was 18 or 19, in college. (She's 30 now.) Joe and Mondo Cool, who also appear herein, we created when she was about 14. "Voleur," btw, is the name of the thief in Ronald Bass's "The Perfect Thief." >> Summer 26, 2676 Asimov. >What does this date notation mean? The Asimov calendar was created by Isaac Asimov. (There's a surprise.) It's a four-month calendar (Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall) that rationalizes the nasty mess we currently live with. In the Continuing Time, all dates post- 2294 are in the Asimov Calendar; it's adopted by Earth somewhat prior to that time, but on November (and elsewhere in the Continuing Time) at the end of 2294. >>Tyrel was tapped, but his tap was designed for November's net, not Sol >>System's Source; the Source's Place lacked the equipment to >>decode the signal from Tyrel's tap [...] >Would the Source really stand for such a situation? I should think Consider a couple of reasons why the Source might not want people to think it had access to their taps ... the Face of Night takes lessons in paranoia from the Source. >>it would have lessened his enjoyment in her company, and so she >>sensibly did burden him with the information. > ^^^^^^^^^^ Um, is this a typo? Why would it have been >sensible to burden him and lessen his enjoyment? Typo. Should read "sensibly did not burden" him. >> Arrith is perfectly normal for a K'Ailla, meaning he is bloodthirsty, >>dishonest, and bores easily. >I have great difficulty imagining a species in which the above qualities >are the norm ever acheiving civilization, let alone a highly technological >civilization that extends into space. A civlization needs members who are >calm, cooperative, at least partly honest, and dedicated to their various >tasks, if it is to last. >That's why I have such trouble accepting seriously such concepts as the >Klingon "warrior culture" - a society *can't* be made up of all warriors. Of course you're correct; it can't. But K'Ailla society isn't a "warrior culture." Parents stay home, run the factories and the shipyards and the research labs; and there are generally a lot more parents than there are males or females. Females tend to get involved in government, and to run the military; males tend to go out and fight. This is rough; there's more variation in K'Ailla behavior than there is in human behavior. (They've had more time than Homo Sapiens has to find different viable ways of behaving as civilized individuals.) I really out to remind everyone that that proposal, "FACE.ASC," was meant for people who had no familiarity with the Continuing Time, and (quite conceivably) no familiarity with science fiction. Some of the things going on in it are directly due to that. If I'd explained all of this in the depth it needs so that its consistent for you who've read the books, well, we'd have the Encyclopedia. To put it another way, some inconsistencies are places I've screwed up -- that bit in the last story in the "FACE.ASC" file is such a case -- but usually they're only apparent inconsistencies, and sometimes I'm simply not going to be able to explain them at this time. I promise -- everyone who waits 25 years gets All the Answers. (This, of course, is a clever ploy to hide all of my mistakes until I've suckered you into buying all the books. :-) >Hmm. Does telepathy not breed true? Or does "genetically engineered" mean >"decendants of the genetically engineered Castanaveras"? Or does it mean >that the house of November is constantly seeking to refine their genotype? The first and the third. Tyrel is a *lot* more heavily genetically engineered than anyone you've run into yet. In one nicely understated bit in LN that I really like, an assassin attacks Tyrel; they struggle and the assassin gets his hand wrapped in Tyrel's hair, which is pretty long: "Tyrel let go of his hair." The assassin stumbles backward with Tyrel's hair in his hand, and Tyrel, now bald, kills the guy. That's a trivial example, though. The following was from my proposal for "Lord November," and relates to my vision of what's going to happen to the human race -- well, to the House of November, in my stories, but in reality, to all of us: "One of the great cliches in science fiction is the idea that as humans evolve, we'll evolve into a calmer, gentler species, all brains and no balls. This strikes me as ridiculous; a likelier result, I think, would be that the range of experiences which humans are capable of undergoing would . "Our great-grandchildren will get angrier than we do, happier than we do, grieve harder and rejoice with more abandon. Love would be a deeper emotion than most of humanity today is capable of experiencing, and hatred would become an emotion so black that we today have no words to describe it. A necessary adjunct to such an evolutionary change would be a degree of self-control, of discipline, unparalleled in the human race today. The House of November is my fictional example of such people; a group of humans so tightly wrapped, so dynamically balanced, that in some ways they remind people more of wild animals than of civilized humans -- that visceral, gut-level feeling that you are in the presence of someone capable of doing literally without warning." >> The K'Aillae have three sexes; male, female, and parent. >> Parents do not breed, and breeders raise children. >For the sake of consistency, I'd like to see this statement expanded and >explained -- It's biological, not social. If, in a small tribe of K'Aillae, the parents were to die in some accident, the breeders would probably (not always) kill their children. Likewise, breeders who give birth when there are no parents around usually kill the children -- they can't feed them, among other problems. (The breeders frequently kill each other, too.) In times of peace breeders historically were a minority. (And male breeders a *serious* minority. They're seriously discriminated against.) Since the beginning of the Hiding, though, there's *never* been peace; the K'Aillae are suffering from a lot of internal tensions during the period when humanity first meets them, due to a lack of balance between the sexes. On another subject, yes, there's plenty of religions left, though none of them have the strength they have today. Which ones exactly? Haven't given it a lot of thought. If you have one you like, feel free to assume it's still around. Finally, yes, there's infighting among the shivas, particularly during Ola Blue's lifetime. Things have been quiet for some time -- the sleem are defeated, the Spacethings haven't shown up, nobody knows where the Zaradin went; the only real enemy is the Mars Hegemony which the Face of Night is confident it can stomp if it wants to. It's in many ways a degenerate era. ~~~~~~~~~~ Greg's letter showed up as I was writing this. >induce some sort of tremendous rush. The psych shakeup may have been an >element injected into the comic to humanise Ola's character, however. Not intentionally, to tell you the truth, but I'm sure it's part of the reason it didn't jump out at me as being glaring. The comic is not the book. As to retraining individuals being expensive, maybe. But Shelomin Serendip had a *reason* for giving Barnes to Ola -- this storyline (as most of the background is) comes from my book, not from anything made up for purposes of the proposal. It's integral to the development of those characters. As to its being a "big plot to do with Barney" -- *everything* is a big plot. Not just Barney. There's a bit in "Always Rising" where Barnes (trying to amuse Ola) tells her a joke he heard, about why when night faces have sex with each other, it's always missionary position ... because they're afraid to turn their backs on each another. Ola's response is neither amused nor offended -- it's a joke told by people who have no conception, as far as she can see, what it means to be a night face. "But night faces don't sleep with each other," she tells Barnes. "It would hardly be safe." **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, d.moran8@genie.geis.com Subject: Re: Various. -------- > > That's good news about tLR at #80. Where exactly is this list published? > rec.arts.sf.written - Instructions on voting are in the FAQ that goes with the list... It uses diffused averages to compute the ranking, so as time goes by, the rating should rise, too... Of course, the more people that vote, the better a rating the books 'll get. Only seven people have voiced opinions on tLR on the voting so far. **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Thoughts on the files -------- Wrote this this morning before work, then forgot to send it. david silberstein writes: >> Arrith is perfectly normal for a K'Ailla, meaning he is bloodthirsty, >>dishonest, and bores easily. > >I have great difficulty imagining a species in which the above qualities >are the norm ever acheiving civilization, let alone a highly >technological civilization that extends into space. A civlization needs >members who are calm, cooperative, at least partly honest, and dedicated >to their various tasks, if it is to last. I think I'd agree with the bit about achieving civilization, but not maintaining it. Given sufficiently high tech, why are these things needed? Okay, maybe civilization isn't quite the right word for what would result (DKM doesn't use that word wrt the K'Aillae) but you could still have a star-faring race. And remember that the K'Aillae fought (and were conquered by?) the sleem, which might well screw up your norms for civilization. And that they may well have been uplifted (useful word) by the Zaradin, so the question of how they got starflight (and the like) without civilization may be different. >>The Mars Hegemony >> The oldest true human colony, dating to pre-star travel days, is that >>on Mars. The Mars Hegemony is independent of United Earth, and hostile to >>it. The Hegemony has been actively opposing the interests of the Face of >>Night for the last fifty years or so. > >It would be interesting to see some background and reasons for this >conflict between Earth and the planet Mars. Just curious. Isn't this (minus the "actively opposing") the current situation in Trent's time? Okay, the names are different. >> It starts with two of our principal locations: Ola Blue's house on the >>slopes of Everest, > >What would the local Tibetans think of the house of a Face of Night >being built on the slopes of Chomolungma, the Mother Goddess of the >World? Come to think of it - *are* there any more religions? Are there >any (*deep breath*) Tibetan Buddhists, Chinese Buddhists, Zen Buddhists, >Hindus, Shinto, Sephardic Jews, Ashkenaz Jews, Erisians, Trentists, >Roman Catholics, Church of England, Scientologists, Protestants, >Wiccans, Native American religions, Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims, >Sufis, etc., etc.? (*whew*) And how do they interact with the >nightfaces? (You know - I can just see the Dalai Lama facing down Lady >Ola... :-) We know that Trentists will be around in the time of _Lord November_, a couple of hundred years after this. (Am I right in assuming that Bodhisatva was Trent originally, given DKM's comments on Trent being a player in that book?) >6) given.txt >I found this story much too, too bleak, depressing, grim and negative. and pointless. 7) lord_november.txt >> Summer 26, 2676 Asimov. > > What does this date notation mean? Presumably they've adopted one of Asimov's calenders. (He had a couple of articles on these --- in _Inconsistent Moon_ or something like that, I think.) I would guess that years are identical to years A.D. Summer 26 is probably mid-July. My own impressions of Lord Novemeber: the prelude was sweet, the first chapter boring, the second chapter great. I'll re-read it again soon and make more details comments. -Sol **************** *** 01-30-95 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts on the files Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA Reply-To: Mike Long -------- Solomon Foster wrote: >david silberstein writes: >>6) given.txt >>I found this story much too, too bleak, depressing, grim and negative. > >and pointless. I liked it, but I prefer my fiction with a bit of a dark streak. Stories with clear-cut Good Guys and Bad Guys where the Good Guys always win (at the last minute, usually) are . Real people are more complex, and real life is seldom that accomodating. That's why, after several readings, I consider Gollum to be the only really interesting character in the _Lord of the Rings_ (cue angry mobs). -- Mike Long PGP 2.6.2 public key signature: VLSI Design Engineer CCBF225E7D3F7ECB2C8F7ABB15D9BE7B Analog Devices, CPD Division Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog));