**************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: Random Thoughts -------- >>2) Could someone please go over the gods...races, balliwicks, etc. > >This is EXACTLY the reason I want to set up that thread archive site... Actually, this is the exact reason I should have made a FAQ for the mailing list years ago. Time to get caught up. I'm going to start organizing the archived list posts properly and get them on-line; at the same time, I'll accumulate questions and answers for the FAQ. At the same time, if you have something you want to see included in the FAQ, send personal mail to me at the address below. (This can be questions, or questions and answers...) -Sol colomon@umich.edu or, if you will colomon@ralf.org ps This isn't to say the "thread archive list" is a bad idea; I see it as having far greater breadth and depth than a FAQ. **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: charles clark x-sender: cmclark@galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Legislation text online -------- The definative place to get copies of legislation online is: http://thomas.loc.gov/ Full text, status, of all legislation pending and passed by the current congress, and well as html marked-up versions are available. Indexed by category, title, and other things, and searchable as well. In this case you are looking for S652 of the 104th Congress. Also the Full Text of the congressional record for the current and previous congress. Scary stuff. To get the full text of the telecomm bill as passed: ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/s652.enr.txt You will be interested in Title V. Get the long version of "Sweet Jane" by the Velvet Underground and play it loud. Understand that current enforcement by US courts of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is FAR from what it was meant to be, and has been hammered on for generations. From the Alien and Sedition acts passed before the ink was dry, to the censorship of Mark Twain's books, the "obscenity" clause that the Supreme Court invented out of no-where, the "local standards" test similarly concocted, to the latest Telecomm Bill the assault has been long and it isn't going to stop. The finest book that I've read to detail censorship efforts, and to show how far down the slippery slope we've already travelled is: FREE SPEECH FOR ME BUT NOT FOR THEE How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other by Nat Hentoff Hentoff chronicles the rash of intolerance displayed by radical feminists, anti-abortion protestors, Zionists, PLO-types, and others in recent years. He insists that the best way to defend free speech is to uphold the general rule for it. Another fine book, part of which covers desecration of the First Amendment, is: LOST RIGHTS The Destruction of American Liberty by James Bovard "There may be no more cogent critic of today's welfare state than journalist James Bovard... Bovard denounces government seizure of property and censorship of speech, he condemns jackboot enforcement tactics involving both drugs and guns. He blasts the public education monopoly, the 'equal opportunity police,' pervasive special-interest subsidies, and confiscatory taxes.'" --Doug Bandow, author of Politics of Envy If you don't have a competent book store in your area, I can get you information on mail-ordering them; send me e-mail. -- cmclark **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: "mcburnett, will" To: continuing time mailing list Subject: Judge restrains Net Smut Act -------- >From C-Net. A Federal Judge, due to lawsuits by the ACLU and 10 other organizations, put a restraining order on the Net Decency part of the new Telecommunications Act. The Justice Dept. was not pleased. There you have it. Now, why did the Navy and Air Force go with the Peaceforcers in the battle for America? :> **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: jon leech To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: CDA and the Continuing Time -------- discussing the CDA. This is not one of them. Please stop. Jon __@/ **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: "charles e. bush" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- At 09:47 AM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote: >You know, in reading all of this traffic, I realized that I am (perhaps >foolishly) reacting only to others' reactions and interpretations. Does >anyone have a copy of the law (or know where it can be had)? At least >the offending sections, anyway. I think I found a copy at the Library of Congress web site, but it was all "in clause 123, replace the words XYZ with the words ZYX", and so forth. >Barring getting a copy of the law (which may be nearly unreadable >anyway - most of them are), does anyone know the specifics about the >restrictions? Are they really restricting language used in private >email or just newsgroups because they are publicly accessible? And >are they restricting ALL discussion of abortion, or just the graphic >descriptions of what really happens during the procedure (to the fetus)? >(I do find it incongruous that presumably the reason for the language >restrictions is to "protect our children" even though most of them >will learn ALL of those words from other kids at school as soon as >they start going, and there are no such restrictions on cable TV, >which is FAR more accessible to kids than the Internet... Censorship >makes me mad enough, but hypocritical, unbalanced, STUPID censorship >REALLY pisses me off!) On abortion, what they are apparently prohibiting is information that would inable someone to obtain an abortion. I'm not sure if that means not telling someone how to perform one, or if it would include information like phone number/location of a clinic. -- Ned Bush (nedbush@gate.net) Plantation, FL **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: dan ealey To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Hello? -------- At 12:40 2/15/96 -0800, you wrote: >>> > Has the list been quiet recently, or have I not been getting sent what has >> > been posted???? >I haven't seen anything for a couple of weeks. > If my vote counts for anything, maybe the above should read "I haven't seen anything _DKM_ for a couple of weeks". Frogs in boiling water? Computer indecency? RPG's (again) I'm as concerned about this new legislation as the rest of you, but could we please take those discussions off this particular line? I certainly do not mean to offend anyone who feels strong enough about these topics to sent them to us all, but how about discussing DKM issues? Thanks Dan-o **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: rjw@iinc.com (rob walsh) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Hello? -------- Sorry - I'll shut up now. I did a lot of thinking last night and realized that I can't do anything about this except as it directly affects ME. I've been trying to hold a logical argument with a fictional person ("The Legislator") who doesn't think logically or consistently. Even if I win the argument, it doesn't matter, because the people who can do something about this AREN'T LISTENING. Rather than give myself an ulcer for no reason, I'm going back to dwelling on subjects that I enjoy (not ones that upset me). [picture of an ostritch with its head buried in the sand... :-) ] Earlier, Solomon mentioned getting a FAQ together and organizing the archives -- I've read through the archives for '93 and '94. Is there one posted yet for '95? Something I noticed the first time that I read tLR: It seems that "Complex 8A" is given it's vernacular name (by DKM) only for the line Trent says to Colonel Webster (I think): [parahrased] "... I could shoot you with my squirt gun and say 'Old colonel's never die, they just *fadeaway*'" -- All through the book I kept wondering why he chose the name "fadeaway". It wasn't a terribly good description of what it did... But this terrible (wonderful) pun made everything clear :-) I do really enjoy DKM's sense of humor. Dutifully Chastened, Rob. **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: CT: Re: Archives -------- >Earlier, Solomon mentioned getting a FAQ together and organizing the >archives -- I've read through the archives for '93 and '94. Is there one >posted yet for '95? No, that's one of the other things I have to do. On the bright side, I've actually started getting the posts from that time period beat into shape. The bad news is that it took me one hour to get one month's worth of posts ready to go, so it will be a while before the whole thing is done. Guess I need to be careful not to let things get backed up like this in the future. -Sol colomon@umich.edu **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: tim lesher To: "'continuing-time@ralf.org'" Subject: RE: Hello? -------- On Friday, February 16, 1996 5:23 AM, Rob Walsh[SMTP:rjw@iinc.com] = wrote: > All through the book I kept wondering why he chose the=20 > name "fadeaway". It wasn't a terribly good description of what it = did... > But this terrible (wonderful) pun made everything clear :-) I do > really enjoy DKM's sense of humor. >From a real-world perspective, I'd be willing to bet that DKM wrapped = the whole concept of fadaway around that one pun. One day he thought of = the pun, and then figured out a way to get it into the novel. But it = does fit Trent's character perfectly. Ignoring reality, (and oh how I love to use _that_ phrase), it might be = that when you're hit with it, the effects come on gradually--first, = voluntary paralysis, then slowly growing unconsciousness. I don't know = of anywhere in TLR that DKM describes the effects of fadeaway from the = victim's perspective, so this might be a plausible after-the-fact = explanation (kind of like explaining Star Wars' TIE fighters as = "twin-ion-engine fighters", when they just happen to look like = bowties...) Tim Lesher timl@epix.net **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: "stephen j. gunn" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: where to find copies... -------- > > There is a "used bookstore" in the Chicagoland area called "(The) Stars Our > Destination". They almost always have copies of TLR in stock, and every now > and then, they get a copy of EE. I don't know their # or address offhand, > but Chicago's area code is 312 if you want to make a call to information. > Hmmmm, I get by there every couple of months and I have not found the above to be true. In fact I always look and have never seen a copy of TLR in stock. -Stephen **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: where to find copies... -------- At 11:11 AM 2/16/96 -0600, you wrote: >> >> There is a "used bookstore" in the Chicagoland area called "(The) Stars Our >> Destination". They almost always have copies of TLR in stock, and every now >> and then, they get a copy of EE. I don't know their # or address offhand, >> but Chicago's area code is 312 if you want to make a call to information. >> >Hmmmm, I get by there every couple of months and I have not found the above to be >true. In fact I always look and have never seen a copy of TLR in stock. > > -Stephen Whenever I'm home from school, I always call there, and they always have at least one copy of TLR in stock. EE is sometimes in, sometimes not. The clerk always tells me that the works of DKM are among the most sought after. > > J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Denise and Trent -------- On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:37:23 -0600 JKer said: >Yes, my last two questions were "newbie" material, but no one answered my >1st question: Since Denice has "transcended", would she recognize Trent as >an avatar? Would Sedon or Dvan. For that matter, would any of them have >recognized Neil Corona or Chief Devlin? I'm sorry about the note of impatience you may have noted, but questions that show a lack of careful reading just sometimes make me snap. As for the above, well, some questions are probably best answered by DKM. If he doesn't answer, then it's usually a *definitive* non-answer. But if its some thoughts you want... Being a Dancer or a Shield doesn't make you omniscient. Heck, being a *God* (of the Continuing Time, at least) doesn't make you omniscient, or even omnipotent. Storyteller talks about some of the constraints he is under. Storyteller even makes mistakes - at the beginning of EE he kills the hapless Jorge Rodriguez because he did not know that Jorge would be in his way and he saw no other course of action. Read thru the part of tLD again that describes the Dancers and Shields. They're better skilled in some ways, and they can sense certain things that an ordinary (untrained) human can't - but they can't know everything. Sedon is the most powerful of the lot, but he can't get inside people's heads (or at least not without interrogating them under horrible torture). Even being a telepathic Dancer doesn't make one omniscient - I'm not sure Denise could have penetrated Sedon's "haze" even after she made her choice to be a Dancer. And finally, there's the question of whether the "avatar" part of Trent could be found, given that it probably doesn't *want* to be found. OTOH, Denice is probably the one who knows Trent the best. She was intimate with him, both physically, and presumably psychically, for 3 months or so, so she's probably the best one to detect anything out of the ordinary in him. But would she probe that deeply, given that she also respects his privacy? To sum up: I dunno. -------- David S **************** *** 02-16-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Denise and Trent -------- >And finally, there's the question of >whether the "avatar" part of Trent could be found, given that it >probably doesn't *want* to be found. Well, first, there's the question of whether Trent *is* an avatar. I somehow suspect he's not -- he's just an incredibly brilliant human being. Now, Georges Mordeaux, *he* was an avatar of the Chained One, I think. (Think about the map at the end of tLD: the Chained One represents Order, and the Serathin represent Chaos -- aka entropy. And what is Georges? The Enemy of Entropy. *And*: it took *eight* of him to fully wake that. That sounds like a *great* way to hide from the Serathin!) >OTOH, Denice is probably the one who knows Trent the best. She was >intimate with him, both physically, and presumably psychically, for >3 months or so, so she's probably the best one to detect anything >out of the ordinary in him. But would she probe that deeply, given >that she also respects his privacy? According to tAB, telepathy is either a form of order-entropy improbabilities, or is detectable through that (the comment was that NO telepath, human or Corvici, would be noticeable as long as Georges was somewhere in the area). Since I've convinced you all that an avatar of the Chained One would represent Order, that poses the interesting question: would a telepath, even one as strong as Denice, be able to read the mind of said avatar if he/she/it did not choose to permit it? I suspect not. Dan come back! We need you! (Well, or at least his books. Time to organize a commando raid in New York? ;)) Sean. **************** *** 02-18-96 *** **************** From: ej613@cleveland.freenet.edu (maureen s. o'brien) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- I have written the following in response to Barlow's "Declaration". Permission is hereby given to forward, crosspost, and copy this song throughout the Internet. And most especially, to sing it.... Your Rules Are Not Our Rules Lyrics: Maureen S. O'Brien, 2/15/96 Music: "Yankee Doodle" We say, "Your rules are not our rules. Your laws are not our laws." They don't apply, so we ask, "Why Impose them? Just because? Though we have no countries here, Land or judge or throne?" We are free, and courtesy's The only law we own. We say, "Your rules are not our rules." If anyone denies it, Then we will fight hard for our rights With anyone who tries it! Censorship kills cyberspace. We won't let you hurt her. We'll defend her till the end Against an idea's murder! We say, "Your rules are not our rules. You have no power here. You won't erase our cyberspace With force or fines or fear. Cyberspace gives everyone A place to spread their dreams. Who would flee such liberty? You lose by your own schemes." -- Maureen S. O'Brien We are like the roses --- ad451@dayton.wright.edu We are forced to grow. **************** *** 02-18-96 *** **************** From: ej613@cleveland.freenet.edu (maureen s. o'brien) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: ha Notzri/de Nostri -------- I suddenly realized.... This fits in with that silly _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ theory (for the uninitiated -- the Merovingian kings of the Franks were descendants of Mary Magdalene & Jesus, and all of recent history has been controlled by pro-Merovingians plotting to get Merovingian descendants into control of the world. When, as everyone knows, it's really the Illuminati in control. Fnord. :) If Samuel de Nostri was a Merovingian descendant, and he used his genes in the de Nostri.... -- Maureen S. O'Brien We are like the roses --- ad451@dayton.wright.edu We are forced to grow. **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Hello? -------- > > > >From a real-world perspective, I'd be willing to bet that DKM wrapped = > the whole concept of fadaway around that one pun. One day he thought of = > the pun, and then figured out a way to get it into the novel. But it = > does fit Trent's character perfectly. Which pun are you referring to? > > Ignoring reality, (and oh how I love to use _that_ phrase), it might be = > that when you're hit with it, the effects come on gradually--first, = > voluntary paralysis, then slowly growing unconsciousness. I don't know = [snip] There is a point in LR where they do mention fadeaway. They say it causes people to drop off to sleep for several hours and then wake with mild hallucinations. Presumably, since it is a quick-acting tranquilizer it takes some (brief) time to onset during which the victim fades out. Also, it could have been so named from the effect it has on the anger of a crowd (recall that it is riot gas). **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: dan rogart To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Complex 8-A -------- On Sun, 18 Feb 1996, verkuilen john v wrote: > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:02:39 -0500 > From: verkuilen john v > To: continuing-time@ralf.org > Subject: Re: Hello? > > > > > > > >From a real-world perspective, I'd be willing to bet that DKM wrapped = > > the whole concept of fadaway around that one pun. One day he thought of = > > the pun, and then figured out a way to get it into the novel. But it = > > does fit Trent's character perfectly. If DKM did nickname complex 8a just so trent could say that line to Col. Webster, he sets it up very early. In Emerald Eyes (p.71) Malko takes some complex 8a to help him sleep, and it is mentioned that the street name is 'fadeaway'. So DKM either set up that one joke a book in advance or just took advantage of the fact that he had already named the stuff fadeaway. Even money on either, I'd say... ;). > [snip] Dan **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 6193093 x-genie-gateway-id: 518318 Subject: ha Notzri/de Nostri -------- Maureen, oh no! Aaargh! (LOL) Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: An Aside -------- Just to let everyone know, this past weekend I went to a used bookstore that usually has DKM books in stock. When I asked the clerk if they had any, she LAUGHED at me for even suggesting that she had them in stock. If this doesn't indicate demand, I don't know what does. J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: "ryan dooley" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- Heh, I have been trying to find DKM books for a long time... :) I just recently, after about a year, got a hold of "The Long Run"... If anybody knows were I can find Emerald Eyes or Armageddon Blues let me know (ok it's a cheap plug, but I want my own copies) --ryan -- ######################################################################## Systems Administrator # Ryan Dooley University of Missouri, Columbia # Office phone: (573) 882-2162 College of Education # Email:ryan@coe.missouri.edu Center for Technology Innovations in Education **************** *** 02-19-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- > > Heh, > > I have been trying to find DKM books for a long time... :) > > I just recently, after about a year, got a hold of "The Long Run"... > > If anybody knows were I can find Emerald Eyes or Armageddon Blues let me know > (ok it's a cheap plug, but I want my own copies) > Try the library. I checked out EE and LR from there. I've located a copy of AB via interlibrary loan. I hope that the reprints of EE and LR come out soon, as I doubt that I can keep renewing them indefinitely while working on Gaming in CT. :) Jay **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: joe cohen To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Sorry... -------- the gaming mailing list. Does anyone have it? Thanks a lot, and sorry again. ************************************************************* * o/ * Joe Cohen * WWWWWWW * * /\ * University of Illinois * | | * * / > * E-Mail - je-cohen@uiuc.edu * OOOO | O O | * * Travolta ******************************************U***** * * Ensign Daniel Pryde, CEO * * * * USS Lexington, Gold Fleet * * * * alt.starfleet.rpg * * * ******************************** * * "Once there was a thief, and the thief was God." - * * The Exodus Bible, from The Last Dancer, by Daniel Keys * * Moran * ************************************************************* **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: charles clark x-sender: cmclark@galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Sorry... -------- On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Joe Cohen wrote: > the gaming mailing list. Does anyone have it? Thanks a lot, and sorry > again. The fastest way to find it would be to send mail to continuing-time-request@ralf.org OR ralf@ralf.org with one line in the BODY (not subject line) of the message, the line being: lists -- cmclark **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: kyle clarke To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside References: <199602191753.LAA26905@oats> -------- JKer wrote: > > Just to let everyone know, this past weekend I went to a used bookstore that > usually has DKM books in stock. When I asked the clerk if they had any, she > LAUGHED at me for even suggesting that she had them in stock. If this > doesn't indicate demand, I don't know what does. It amazes me that with a contemporary author with several books in, as an example, the "Internet SF Top 100 List", it's impossible to find any signs of his existence in a bookstore (other than, usually, a single copy of TLD). His shelfmate Michael Moorcock had about half a bookcase worth of books at Dark Carnival last time I checked. If you were to associate 'shelf-room' with the quality of an author's books... well, I've never read a MM book. And yet DKM is one of only four authors I've encountered whose fiction I genuinely enjoy reading - Card, Gibson, and Banks as well. Zelazny, except I've read all of his. I can't even give a gift of a DKM book and I've wanted too a few times, there's none to be had. Is there any word of how his trip to LA went? Trade paperback versions of every book in the Continuing Time series would be great (I've still never seen EE anywhere). -- \|//////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|/ - ====== kclarke@ccnet.com ===== http://www.ccnet.com/~kclarke/ - /|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ //////////////////////////////////|\ **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: sandi rollins x-sender: srollins@emily12.berkeley.edu To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- Well, I just found my *third* copy of tLR. I'm now willing to part with one. :^) I need a spare for when I lend one out, just in case. :^) No spares of AB or EE, but when I find some more, I will post. I paid $5. First reimbursement plus shipping offer gets it. I'm in the SF Bay Area, if someone local needs it. Sandi On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Ryan Dooley wrote: > Heh, > > I have been trying to find DKM books for a long time... :) > > I just recently, after about a year, got a hold of "The Long Run"... > > If anybody knows were I can find Emerald Eyes or Armageddon Blues let me know > (ok it's a cheap plug, but I want my own copies) > > --ryan > > -- > ######################################################################## > Systems Administrator # Ryan Dooley > University of Missouri, Columbia # Office phone: (573) 882-2162 > College of Education # Email:ryan@coe.missouri.edu > Center for Technology Innovations in Education > > **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: elmann@well.com (peter kim) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- >Just to let everyone know, this past weekend I went to a used bookstore that >usually has DKM books in stock. When I asked the clerk if they had any, she >LAUGHED at me for even suggesting that she had them in stock. If this >doesn't indicate demand, I don't know what does. > > >J. Kerman > Whereabouts are you and this bookstore located, J? **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: banzai42@aol.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- In a message dated 96-02-20 00:17:08 EST, you write: >Well, I just found my *third* copy of tLR. I'm now willing to part with >one. :^) I need a spare for when I lend one out, just in case. :^) No >spares of AB or EE, but when I find some more, I will post. > >I paid $5. First reimbursement plus shipping offer gets it. I'm in the SF >Bay Area, if someone local needs it. > >Sandi Sandi, I've been looking to replace a copy of tLR for a friend, who I got hooked. He lost his copy getting one of his friend's hooked (it's starting to sound like an old Shampoo commercial..... and so on, and so on :-) I live in NJ, But I'll be in San Jose (Via SF) next week on business. If it's still available, I'd really like to get my hands on it. Thanks, Craig Z **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: charles clark x-sender: cmclark@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: owner-continuing-time@ralf.org, piaw@mpath.com, erik_kay@next.com Subject: blank mail sent on the continuing-time mailing list -------- We recently mailed two blank messages to the list; apparently this was caused by the partition with /tmp getting full. I believe, from going through the logs, that the two messages that were lost were sent by the recipients of this message. You may wish to resend your recent message to the list. -- cmclark **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- At 10:46 PM 2/19/96 -0800, you wrote: >>Just to let everyone know, this past weekend I went to a used bookstore that >>usually has DKM books in stock. When I asked the clerk if they had any, she >>LAUGHED at me for even suggesting that she had them in stock. If this >>doesn't indicate demand, I don't know what does. >> >> >>J. Kerman >> > Whereabouts are you and this bookstore located, J? > > I am currently in DeKalb, Il at Northern Illinois University. The bookstore in question was in Wheaton, Il, I think, called Paige's. I found my copy of tAB there so I figured I'd try again-no luck. J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Clarification -------- Please don't jump on me for asking this, but what exactly is the relation between the new and old human race? I was confused while reading TLD. J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-20-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- >Please don't jump on me for asking this, but what exactly is the relation >between the new and old human race? I was confused while reading TLD. The old human race were the hominids (H. s. neanderthalis? It's not terribly clear to me) whom the Zaradin grabbed and genegineered. Dvan and Sedon were both members of the old human race. The new human race arose from Dvan and Sedon (and Sedon's people), from interbreeding with the members of the OHR on Earth. Sean. **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: ej613@cleveland.freenet.edu (maureen s. o'brien) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: The Thief as God -------- There's a song in Irish called "Gadhai Grana" (The Ugly Thief) about a man who meets the thief Death. However, I suppose that one could see Jesus as a thief, stealing souls from Hell -- though I don't remember ever seeing this metaphor, I might have seen it in Chesterton (it would be his kind of paradox). Oh, and I was just reading in The Arabian Nights Companion about a thief in the 9th century, al-Uqab (the Eagle). He once bet a doctor that he could steal something from the doctor's house withoin a week, but he had more difficulty than he expected because the doctor hired guards. So on the last night he drugged the household and stole the doctor away! -- Maureen S. O'Brien We are like the roses --- ad451@dayton.wright.edu We are forced to grow. **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: nsalon@center.colgate.edu (neil salon) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts X-Sender: nsalon@center.colgate.edu -------- ideas that DKM does not mention the only two that I can think of would be the Unity, and the orbital laser cannon. I think something low profile like a massive transfer of funds would not be publicly humiliating enough to the Unification (Trent remarks that he wants to bring them down or at least hurt them real bad) or high profile enough to satisfy Trent's ego. I don't think Trent would boost something from the Unification at that point without them being VERY clear who was ripping them off. Neil Salon NSALON@CENTER.COLGATE.EDU **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts -------- >the only two that I can think of would be >the Unity, and the orbital laser cannon. The problem with the oribital lasers is that Trent believes in the *purpose* of the PKF -- he believes that the Unification itself has soured, but trying to put the OLC under anyone else's control would just be too tempting. _Unity_, however, does not serve such a purpose -- it's sole purpose in life is to extend the Unification to the rest of the Solar System, bringing its rule to the Collective -- which has *not* demonstrated the same need that Earth did! Sean. **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Trent's Boosts -------- > > ideas that DKM does not mention the only two that I can think of would be > the Unity, and the orbital laser cannon. I think something low profile like > a massive transfer of funds would not be publicly humiliating enough to the > Unification (Trent remarks that he wants to bring them down or at least hurt > them real bad) or high profile enough to satisfy Trent's ego. I don't think > Trent would boost something from the Unification at that point without them > being VERY clear who was ripping them off. > I agree that the Unity would be _the_ high profile target of choice, but how about Eddore, or better yet, Vance? Trent above a bit of kidnapping? Nah.... :) **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: ryan dooley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: An Aside -------- On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, JKer wrote: > At 10:46 PM 2/19/96 -0800, you wrote: > >>Just to let everyone know, this past weekend I went to a used bookstore that > >>usually has DKM books in stock. When I asked the clerk if they had any, she > >>LAUGHED at me for even suggesting that she had them in stock. If this > >>doesn't indicate demand, I don't know what does. > >> > >> > >>J. Kerman > >> > > Whereabouts are you and this bookstore located, J? > > > > > I am currently in DeKalb, Il at Northern Illinois University. The bookstore > in question was in Wheaton, Il, I think, called Paige's. I found my copy of > tAB there so I figured I'd try again-no luck. Hey I grew up near there... well my dad did... I used to know a really good used book store there... let me see if I can dig it up... > > > J. Kerman --ryan > > "Of course you realize this means war." > -Bugs Bunny PS: the above is cool :) > > "War is the continuation of politics by other means" > -Karl von Clausewitz > ######################################################################## Systems Administrator # Ryan Dooley University of Missouri, Columbia # Office phone: (573) 882-2162 College of Education # Email:ryan@coe.missouri.edu Center for Technology Innovations in Education **************** *** 02-21-96 *** **************** From: dan rogart To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts -------- > >the only two that I can think of would be > >the Unity, and the orbital laser cannon. > > The problem with the oribital lasers is that Trent believes in the *purpose* > of the PKF -- he believes that the Unification itself has soured, but > trying to put the OLC under anyone else's control would just be too > tempting. > > _Unity_, however, does not serve such a purpose -- it's sole purpose in life > is to extend the Unification to the rest of the Solar System, bringing its > rule to the Collective -- which has *not* demonstrated the same need that > Earth did! > > Sean. > I agree that the Unity would be a good target. However, the Unification did not even begin construction on it until 2072 (see tLD p.405). The Long Run occured from roughly 2069-70, so the Unity is out as a target. Maybe a suitably high profile PKF target would be something like Peaceforcer Heaven. If Trent could have destroyed it without killing anyone, he would have "stolen" the L-5 lagrange point from the PKF. Maybe DKM has some light to shed on this (are you back from California yet?)... Dan **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: zane grey To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- > >Please don't jump on me for asking this, but what exactly is the relation > >between the new and old human race? I was confused while reading TLD. > The old human race were the hominids (H. s. neanderthalis? It's not > terribly clear to me) whom the Zaradin grabbed and genegineered. Dvan and > Sedon were both members of the old human race. Its not specified. 100 thousand years ago.... could have been anyone. > The new human race arose from Dvan and Sedon (and Sedon's people), from > interbreeding with the members of the OHR on Earth. It states clearly (can't recall page number offhand) that all Sedon's people and their offspring were killed and Dvan et al were sure of that. Later Sedon was in stasis... and the others were dead. I'm not sure if the renengade Dancers that remained shortly before Sedon was incarcerated would have procreated with the tribes (IMHO unlikely), or if Dvan came back to make sure none of these theoretical offspring survived. (always struck me as nice how the Dancers who are devoted to life and that "killing is wrong" had these handy Shields to do it for them... well they did win the war among the various Old Human Race factions. On the other hand Sedon and his Dancers didn't seem to have a problem (Sedon almost took Camber's path?)). This leaves Dvan, Indo and ummm "the female I can never remember the name of." The woman would definitely have interbred I'm pretty sure, but the female uterus can only take so much. Leaving her kids..... Indo may have procreated (again would he?) Dvan is never mentioned as having had kids.... this would have been fairly important to him I'd suppose and at least worth a mention. Anyway... even though they had thousands of years, and at that time a relatively small gene pool, the woman's (argh what is her name?) contribution was limited (regression to the mean would apply to her offspring), and the men's possibly non-existant. My impression was always that the New Human Race evolved naturally, without major influence from the Old Human Race. - Zane. PS. One other thing I thought of whilst writing this.... what exactly is a Shield's relationship to the Flame? Dancers are devoted to life and can call down the Flame..... but how did Devane call it down in Ireland after remembering his whole history? Shields who can and do kill can call down the Flame of Life? **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- >> The new human race arose from Dvan and Sedon (and Sedon's people), from >> interbreeding with the members of the OHR on Earth. >It states clearly (can't recall page number offhand) that all Sedon's >people and their offspring were killed and Dvan et al were sure of that. No, it was stated that if Dvan's people came across a group that they thought were Sedon's, they killed them. That *does not* mean that they killed all of Sedon's people's descendents. Remember, some of Sedon's people survive into the present time... why would you think their children wouldn't have survived? >(always struck me as nice how the Dancers who are devoted to life and >that "killing is wrong" had these handy Shields to do it for them... well >they did win the war among the various Old Human Race factions. On the >other hand Sedon and his Dancers didn't seem to have a problem (Sedon >almost took Camber's path?)). The relationship between Dancer and Shield is not quite certain. It is implied, to a degree, that Dancers didn't fight (at least, not until Sedon). Instead, they *demonstrated* fights and battles, through their Dances; in some ways, their martial knowledge was quite superior to that of the Shield. I suspect it's best described as this (before Sedon, anyway): the Shield were the armies, and the Dancers were artists. >The woman would definitely have interbred I'm pretty sure, but the >female uterus can only take so much. Actually, that's not the problem. The problem, really, is that a human woman is born with all the ova she will ever have; it didn't sound like the Flame People had changed that to any degree. >My impression was always that the New Human Race evolved naturally, >without major influence from the Old Human Race. I disagree on two counts. First, as I said, it's almost certain that some intermixed offspring survived; this is supported by Dvan's statement to Denice that "you are our offspring" or somesuch. Second, what Dvan's people did influenced the New Human Race incredibly -- it caused them to become more warlike (not necessarily combative, but having to live in a state of perpetual warfare for thousands of years). According to Dvan, even the humans of Denice's time are "insane" (this from a man who spent a large part of fifty thousand years killing proto-humans!). >PS. One other thing I thought of whilst writing this.... what exactly is >a Shield's relationship to the Flame? Dancers are devoted to life and >can call down the Flame..... but how did Devane call it down in Ireland >after remembering his whole history? Shields who can and do kill can call >down the Flame of Life? What makes you think that Dvan called down the Flame? I don't remember anything like that... (I do, now, vaguely recall something about a sheet of fire dancing over him? I had assumed that was just the Nameless One's touch on him.) The Shield have no direct relationship to the Flame; they fight and protect, first the Lords of the Aneida and the Priestesses, then the Dancers, then whoever is left. Most of their knowledge of the Flame comes from watching Dancers, although it seems that all of the Flame People are touched by the Flame, at least when they are first consecrated. The Dancers are not quite "devoted to life"; they are devoted to the Flame, which is a thing of Life. However, as Sedon demonstrated, it was possible to fight and kill, and still be devoted to the Flame. Sean. **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > The Dancers are not quite "devoted to life"; they are devoted to the Flame, > which is a thing of Life. However, as Sedon demonstrated, it was possible > to fight and kill, and still be devoted to the Flame. > > Sean. Remember, Sedon's heresy was that he killed the flame, and became the first nightface. -John jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: kenji_kono@brown.edu (kenji kono) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- John wrote... >Remember, Sedon's heresy was that he killed the flame, and became the >first nightface. Actually, if I remember correctly, Sedon mastered the Flame and made it do his bidding. His problem was that he then proceeded to hoard this knowledge and eventually to make war that did damage to the Shield (I think that's what it was called, whatever it was) Project that was supposed to protect the world from the Sleem. Indo's students in Alexandria made the step of Killing the Flame, a step that the Dancers, having been trained to revere to life, could not take. later, kk ---------- Kenji Kono, Brown University Media Services phone: 401-863-3600 fax: 401-863-3820 e-mail: Kenji_Kono@brown.edu **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: mike fitz To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- > Indo's students in Alexandria made the step of Killing the Flame, a step >that the Dancers, having been trained to revere to life, could not take. > I seem to recall that Sedon was shocked by this perversion of the Dance when he learned of it. Mike **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: "allyn b. brodsky" x-sender: abbrdsky@netcom14 To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Kenji Kono wrote: > > Actually, if I remember correctly, Sedon mastered the Flame and made it > do his bidding. His problem was that he then proceeded to hoard this > knowledge and eventually to make war that did damage to the Shield (I think > that's what it was called, whatever it was) Project that was supposed to > protect the world from the Sleem. The Sphere project, I think. Probably a dyson sphere around the home system. > Indo's students in Alexandria made the step of Killing the Flame, a step > that the Dancers, having been trained to revere to life, could not take. > Actually, Indo's students were the origin of shiabre, an ur-form of martial arts that used Dance, and maybe the Flame as well, in the service of the Kill, as an artform. On another topic, is anyone else noticing that the Zaradin gods have a name quite similar to the chaotic Sarathin? Implications? Cheers! Allyn abbrdsky@netcom.com Allyn B. Brodsky, Consulting Philosopher International Synergy Institute allynbbrdsky@loop.com *Visit International Synergy Institute Online:* URL: "http://www.pacweb.com/synergy/welcome.html" **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: kenji_kono@brown.edu (kenji kono) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- >The Sphere project, I think. Probably a dyson sphere around the home system. That's right - thanks. Hmm, what do you think the possibility is that the Sphere is a mega-huge Slowtime bubble? The Old Humans seem pretty good with Slowtime bubbles. >Actually, Indo's students were the origin of shiabre, an ur-form of >martial arts that used Dance, and maybe the Flame as well, in the service >of the Kill, as an artform. Isn't shiabre the same as nightways/night face? (In his hand, he holds a black Flame etc. etc.) Maybe I missed something. >On another topic, is anyone else noticing that the Zaradin gods have a >name quite similar to the chaotic Sarathin? Implications? That's a thought. At some point, doesn't someone say that "Zaradin" is a human mispronounciation (sp?) of the true name as well. For that matter, when the Name Historian (through Neil Corona) is talking to Trent in Halfway, doesn't he say something to the effect that, if he, Trent, is an incarnation of the Chained One, all the Zaradin gods (with the exception of the god of Players) will be arrayed against him? Hmmm. just some random thoughts, kk ---------- Kenji Kono, Brown University Media Services phone: 401-863-3600 fax: 401-863-3820 e-mail: Kenji_Kono@brown.edu **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- Dvan sure does mention having kids. Reread the battle in which he loses his memory. Also, what he does after he loses his memory could have contributed a great deal. If any of you have read Heinlein's _Time Enough for Love_ you might recall the calculation of the proportion of Lazarus Long's genes in the gene pool over 4000 years. It was pretty huge (something like 1/3 of all Howard genes were from the Senior). While it is true that one person's contribution to the gene pool rapidly diminishes under normal circumstances, if it is constantly being freshened (since that person is still around, likely mating with relatives--nearly impossible not to after a while) that person will end up with a _very_ large genetic contribution. If you want the equations I am sure they wouldn't be too hard to work out. As to the Shields' ability to finish off all the children of Sedon's followers, I doubt it. Say (the woman mentioned at the end of LD) probably had quite a few over the years. It is distinctly possible that others survived as well. If they weren't alive at the end of LD, they certainly could have been during the 39,000 years. Indo might also have had children in the time between when Dvan last saw him and when Dvan killed him (sometime just before the birth of Christ). Perhaps not since Dancers didn't touch women (IIRC-- don't know if this extended to breeding or not), but since Indo had violated every other rule, why not this last one? In all, I think it quite plausible that the new human race is entirely descended from the exiles of the Flame People. J. Verkuilen jayv@uiuc.edu Witty remark: Is it just me, or do all the people who request "Reelin' in the Years" on those oldies stations completely miss the point? **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- On another topic, is anyone else noticing that the Zaradin gods have a name quite similar to the chaotic Sarathin? Implications? I thought that they were the same??? J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- >>The Sphere project, I think. Probably a dyson sphere around the home system. >That's right - thanks. Hmm, what do you think the possibility is that the >Sphere is a mega-huge Slowtime bubble? The Old Humans seem pretty good >with Slowtime bubbles. Unlikely, but possible, I suppose. The entire output of the star surrounded would be available for use, so that could provide the power. The thing is... why? A Dyson Sphere gives you a HUGE amount of usable land, and cuts down on your need to expand -- and if you don't expand, the Sleem don't care. Sean. **************** *** 02-22-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: telcomm -------- If anyone is still interested, I just recieved the complete telcomm bill. If you would like a copy, please ask...be warned, it is roughly 400,000 bytes large. J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: ryan dooley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: telcomm -------- On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, JKer wrote: > If anyone is still interested, I just recieved the complete telcomm bill. > If you would like a copy, please ask...be warned, it is roughly 400,000 > bytes large. Sure... you can, instead of mailing it, ftp it to focus.coe.missouri.edu and put it in /pub/incoming ... > > > J. Kerman > > "Of course you realize this means war." > -Bugs Bunny > > "War is the continuation of politics by other means" > -Karl von Clausewitz > --ryan ######################################################################## Systems Administrator # Ryan Dooley University of Missouri, Columbia # Office phone: (573) 882-2162 College of Education # Email:ryan@coe.missouri.edu Center for Technology Innovations in Education **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: "allyn b. brodsky" x-sender: abbrdsky@netcom6 To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Zaradin et. al -------- On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Kenji Kono wrote: > > >On another topic, is anyone else noticing that the Zaradin gods have a > >name quite similar to the chaotic Sarathin? Implications? > > That's a thought. At some point, doesn't someone say that "Zaradin" is a > human mispronounciation (sp?) of the true name as well. For that matter, > when the Name Historian (through Neil Corona) is talking to Trent in > Halfway, doesn't he say something to the effect that, if he, Trent, is an > incarnation of the Chained One, all the Zaradin gods (with the exception of > the god of Players) will be arrayed against him? Hmmm. That's the Name Storyteller, who, we learn is Chiell/KayEl? November.... Presumably the God of Players is likely to turn out to be Camber Tremodium after a *really bad* experience..... Cheers! Allyn abbrdsky@netcom.com Allyn B. Brodsky, Consulting Philosopher International Synergy Institute allynbbrdsky@loop.com *Visit International Synergy Institute Online:* URL: "http://www.pacweb.com/synergy/welcome.html" **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: bizarre aside -------- My friend Jorge Rodriguez just finished his PhD in Chemistry, specializing in imaging of complex organic iron molecules. I hope he avoids any projects involving genetic engineering about 2030.... **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Zaradin et. al -------- Attributions snipped, because I'm lazy: > > >On another topic, is anyone else noticing that the Zaradin gods have a > > >name quite similar to the chaotic Sarathin? Implications? > > > > That's a thought. At some point, doesn't someone say that "Zaradin" is a > > human mispronounciation (sp?) of the true name as well. For that matter, > > when the Name Historian (through Neil Corona) is talking to Trent in > > Halfway, doesn't he say something to the effect that, if he, Trent, is an > > incarnation of the Chained One, all the Zaradin gods (with the exception of > > the god of Players) will be arrayed against him? Hmmm. > > That's the Name Storyteller, who, we learn is Chiell/KayEl? November.... > > Presumably the God of Players is likely to turn out to be Camber > Tremodium after a *really bad* experience..... Anyone that cares to look through the archives can find out more about this, including what DKM revealed after much wild speculating on my/our part at the time. Basically there were the Serathin, which were embodiments of chaos, and then some of those Serathin came to be embodied in the Zaradin (lizard-things) which were the first embodiments of the greater gods (and presumably took their names from the Serathin). Time goes on and the Serathin get embodied in other races as well, and so you get more of the Greater Gods (including Storyteller and Camber). As to Camber himself, I think it's (nebulously) settled that his path is the combination of Dancing and Nightways, and that these being fundamentally incompatible, he's in a lot of pain. Of course, it could be any number of other things. The other thing to remember is that all the Greater Gods being free of temporal restrictions, it may be that the Nameless One is Camber after some traumatic event or punishment (and if I were wildly speculating I might suggest it were after he became the Chained One [although this is very probably specious]). Oh, another thing that relative new-comers won't have come across is that the twisting lines that Dvan stares at in TLD while in Hyperspace would have led him to the realisation that the hyperspace tunnels are the neural pathways of the Chained One. So everyone is inside the CO's brain. Dum de dum, other things that might be of speculative interest are the possibility that the Chained One existing means that the universe has been temporally looped, so that there is some sort of recurring order. One fun possibility of this is that the new and old human races become the same race. It also leaves the Serathin wanting to bust out so that they can change history in major fashion and progress, rather than being limited to minor changes. I tend to think it also makes the mechanics of time travel easier, but that might just be me. Regards, Greg -- Hey Mom! Look at me! I'm a pupating demon! http://www.gu.uwa.edu.au/users/greg/ **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: kenji_kono@brown.edu (kenji kono) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Trent's Boosts -------- Neil Salon said ... >(Trent remarks that he wants to bring them down or at least hurt >them real bad) or high profile enough to satisfy Trent's ego. I don't think >Trent would boost something from the Unification at that point without them >being VERY clear who was ripping them off. You (and everyone else) are right. I finally looked up the chapter in TLR and, yep, Trent's after the PKF. I still get the impression, though, that Trent's other two targets are _less_ spectacular/stategically important to the PKF than the LINK. After he decides to go after the LINK, he scraps the plans to get Denise off Earth. That said, I'm of the mind that Trent's other ideas would've been something on the order of a massive prank, not an act of war. Like the PKF conference on Luna - humiliating but not really deadly. -kk ---------- Kenji Kono, Brown University Media Services phone: 401-863-3600 fax: 401-863-3820 e-mail: Kenji_Kono@brown.edu **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: tim lesher To: "continuing-time@ralf.org" Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts -------- On Friday, February 23, 1996 12:11 PM, Kenji = Kono[SMTP:Kenji_Kono@brown.edu] wrote: >Neil Salon said ... > That said, I'm of the mind that Trent's other ideas would've been >something on the order of a massive prank, not an act of war. Like the = PKF >conference on Luna - humiliating but not really deadly. That's pretty much a given with Trent. Look at the conversation he had = with Johnny Johnny just before taking down the PKF conference [grabbing = his well-read and now brittle copy of TLR]: "[Erasing his PKF file is] going to make them look silly, Johnny. It's = worse than killing them, you know. They'd rather die gloriously than be = laughed at." I can't find the other quote I'm looking for, but when asked in either = TLR or TLD what he's going to do about the PKF, Trent doesn't say he's = going to fight, destroy,or kill them, or even stop them. He says, "I'm = going to _hurt_ them". Tim Lesher timl@epix.net **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 2472013 x-genie-gateway-id: 630594 Subject: Re: Clarification -------- That the Zaradin and the Sarathin are one and the same is explicitly stated in _TLD_. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- Daniel Dvorkin wrote: > That the Zaradin and the Sarathin are one and the same is explicitly stated > in _TLD_. From memory, the bit you mean is where someone (I think the priestess of the flame) says that Zaradin is a corruption of Ss'rathin, which is what the Zaradin called themselves. Which does not at all equate them to the Serathin (when by Serathin the reference is the the chaos embodiments). Plus, of course, the speaker (or original hearer) might just have misunderstood what the Zaradin meant by the reference. Basically: Serathin = Chaos Beings Zaradin = Lizards Ss'rathin= What the lizards call themselves All this is from what I recall DKM posting ages ago, however, and so it might well be wrong. Regards, Greg -- Hey Mom! Look at me! I'm a pupating demon! http://www.gu.uwa.edu.au/users/greg/ **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 7194882 x-genie-gateway-id: 755246 Subject: bizarre aside -------- Alas, poor Jorge! Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 1694308 x-genie-gateway-id: 320399 Subject: Re: Clarification -------- Allyn, what Greg said. Okay, so maybe the Keeper had her story a bit garbled, but it seemed pretty clear to me. We really, really need Daniel around to settle questions like this, I think. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-25-96 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Clarification -------- Danie wrote: > Allyn, what Greg said. Okay, so maybe the Keeper had her story a bit > garbled, but it seemed pretty clear to me. > > We really, really need Daniel around to settle questions like this, I think. Not to be snide (really!), but what we actually need is a few dozen more books to answer all these questions. More for us to read, more money for DKM. Everyone wins. I can dream. The problem with having DKM around to answer questions (as he has said) is that he tends to reveal more than he wants to, thus spoiling (in the usenet sense) future books. The other problem is that all these rabid fans he has (the same ones that pore through the books looking for things that might possibly be important [like when I thought Novemeber names ending in 'el' might mean something]) tend to wildly speculate until he just *has* to say something, then they take his answer and run with it even more. To the point where everything is going to be anti-climactic if DKM isn't careful. Sure, having DKM around is nice, but he can't answer every question. Only more books can do that. Now (turning on blithely ignorant snide mode), if only another one could _finally_ see the light of day. Regards, Greg P.s.: Liked Brust's _Orca_, but I'm finding May's _Magnificat_ heavy going. It's complicated by the fact that Julian May seems to have gone completely insane somewhere around _Jack the Bodiless_ and developed a compulsion for describing (in nauseating detail) the complete dress of every character in every scene. -- Hey Mom! Look at me! I'm a pupating demon! http://www.gu.uwa.edu.au/users/greg/ **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 0119679 x-genie-gateway-id: 659108 Subject: Re: Clarification -------- Well, yes, more CT books would be the best of all possible solutions. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: "allyn b. brodsky" x-sender: abbrdsky@netcom2 To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: May & Magnificat -------- On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, Greg Wheatley wrote: > > P.s.: Liked Brust's _Orca_, but I'm finding May's _Magnificat_ heavy > going. It's complicated by the fact that Julian May seems to have gone > completely insane somewhere around _Jack the Bodiless_ and developed a > compulsion for describing (in nauseating detail) the complete dress of > every character in every scene. Yes, I enjoyed _Orca_ too, somewhat more like the most interesting of the earlier books. For May, I believe she's always had a costuming thing dataing back to her coming up with Diamond Mask's duds for an SF Con, and writing notes for a story around it. I've always thought the Milieu books were written first, with the Saga quartet and _Intervention_ coming later, to provide a framework in which the Milieu story could attract a readership. If they were written later, it might explain why they seem a bit better, more balanced. While the Milieu is OK (IMHO), it also suffers from an excess of religious explication. Cheers, Allyn abbrdsky@netcom.com Allyn B. Brodsky, Consulting Philosopher International Synergy Institute allynbbrdsky@loop.com *Visit International Synergy Institute Online:* URL: "http://www.pacweb.com/synergy/welcome.html" **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: "Serathin," "Ssrathin," etc. -------- Greg writes: >Basically: Serathin = Chaos Beings > Zaradin = Lizards > Ss'rathin= What the lizards call themselves > >All this is from what I recall DKM posting ages ago, however, and so it >might well be wrong. Sol digs up the old DKM post: >The "Sssrathin," as Saliya pronounces it, and the "Zaradin" as Dvan and >Tyrel November both know them, are the exact same folks; reptilian >aliens, among the first biological life forms in the Milky Way. > >The "Serathin," as spelled in the creation myth Storyteller shares with >Trent, certainly have something to do with the alien Zaradin; but not >all Zaradin aliens are Serathin-out-of-Chaos (the overwhelming majority >are not); and not all Serathin-out-of-Chaos are Zaradin (at least two of >them are human, in fact.) > >I've probably said more on this subject than I should have. All Comes >Clear in "The Time Wars." > >A note, BTW: after the end of the Time Wars, the "Zaradin Church" is >*not* Zaradin, any more than Roman Catholics are Roman. It's merely the >name of the Church founded by the Zaradin before they packed their bags >and split. Yet another instance which shows I've got to get those damned archives on-line. -Sol colomon@ralf.org **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: May & Magnificat -------- by off-topic (for the list) discussions... Allyn wrote: > Yes, I enjoyed _Orca_ too, somewhat more like the most interesting of the > earlier books. My primary reason for liking Brust's work has been the narrative style. Which is why I liked the earlier Taltos books and the Phoenix Guards ones _a lot_. I was disappointed with _Athyra_ for that reason (amongst other things) and _Orca_ is a return to form (at least partially). Given the way that Brust seems to be playing with viewpoints in the Taltos series, however, I suspect that I'm always going to like the Phoenix Guards books a lot more. > For May, I believe she's always had a costuming thing dataing back to her > coming up with Diamond Mask's duds for an SF Con, and writing notes for a > story around it. I've always thought the Milieu books were written first, > with the Saga quartet and _Intervention_ coming later, to provide a > framework in which the Milieu story could attract a readership. If they > were written later, it might explain why they seem a bit better, more > balanced. While the Milieu is OK (IMHO), it also suffers from an excess > of religious explication. In an interview I recall reading (in the _Pleiocene Companion_) May stated that she though of the Milieu saga first and wrote the others to lead up to it. I suspect this is part of the problem. The Milieu saga was conceived of as an epic tale, and supposed to be told as such, yet (as revealed) the story and characters just aren't epic. There are no grand climaxes, no great conflicts, no great individuals. What we get instead is a bland re-telling of events (with extended costume descriptions), deus ex machina endings (which repeat those of previous books), anti-climaxes, and character sketches which give us no real insight into motivations. It's struggle without the epic. And where the series is such that we already know the resolution, and much of the content, this falls very flat. As to the clothing thing, it has been evident in previous books, but only really started to annoy me in _Diamond Mask_, where we'd be given descriptions of everything Marc was wearing in any scene, but almost never get told what he or Jack were actually thinking. It was all surface. Then I get to _Magnificat_ (making the prediction beforehand that there'd be lots of such things) and I got to the wedding scene... Basically, May was vastly better off leaving the story of the rebellion untold (IMO). Just to lend this post a hint of relevancy, I'll add that one of the things that I like about DKM's work is that although we know much that will happen (from hints in the books and what he's said) none of it falls flat in the way that the Milieu Saga does (for me, anyway) because that which he writes surpasses that idea given by the hints, and furthermore, is readable for the characters alone (such as Carl and Trent [although definitely not Denice]). With the Milieu saga events are all May has, and they've been largely given away (by her beforehand). Regards, Greg -- Hey Mom! Look at me! I'm a pupating demon! http://www.gu.uwa.edu.au/users/greg/ **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: ian sutherland To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: May & Magnificat -------- Perhaps this thread could be taken to rec.arts.sf.written? It seems inappropriate for this list. **************** *** 02-26-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts -------- I can't find the other quote I'm looking for, but when asked in either TLR or TLD what he's going to do about the PKF, Trent doesn't say he's going to fight, destroy,or kill them, or even stop them. He says, "I'm going to _hurt_ them". Tim Lesher The passage is after Trent burries Nathan and is sitting watching cartoons in the crawler. J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: tim lesher To: "'continuing-time@ralf.org'" Subject: RE: Trent's Boosts -------- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB046E.C91F3580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, February 26, 1996 2:05 PM, JKer[SMTP:jker@niu.edu] wrote: >The passage is after Trent burries Nathan and is sitting watching = cartoons >in the crawler. That's exactly the one I was looking for (I thought he was talking to = Lan, but it was Johnny Johnny). The phrase I was looking for was that = Trent considered their greatest weakness was their lack of a sense of = humor. He _had_ to do something to which they couldn't respond in kind. = Any plain show of force, they could regroup and do him one better. = Now, a show of _farce_ was something else altogether... ;) Tim Lesher timl@epix.net ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB046E.C91F3580 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjcWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ADQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAE8AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABjb250aW51aW5nLXRpbWVAcmFsZi5vcmcAU01UUABjb250aW51aW5nLXRpbWVAcmFs Zi5vcmcAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAZAAAAY29udGludWluZy10aW1lQHJh bGYub3JnAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAABsAAAAnY29udGludWluZy10aW1lQHJh bGYub3JnJwAAAgELMAEAAAAeAAAAU01UUDpDT05USU5VSU5HLVRJTUVAUkFMRi5PUkcAAAADAAA5 AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA6Y8AQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWls Lk5vdGUAMQgBBIABABMAAABSRTogVHJlbnQncyBCb29zdHMAMgYBBYADAA4AAADMBwIAGgAPABcA IQABADcBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcCABoADwASAB8AAQAwAQEJgAEAIQAAADExQ0ZDRDhDMjY3MENGMTFB MTMzNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAOEGAQOQBgAwBAAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMA NgAAAAAAQAA5AEC/KE2IBLsBHgBwAAEAAAATAAAAUkU6IFRyZW50J3MgQm9vc3RzAAACAXEAAQAA ABYAAAABuwSITSGMzc8ScCYRz6EzREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAMAAABNUwAAHgAfDAEAAAAUAAAA QVNZTUVUUklYL01BSUwvVGltTAADAAYQgIl/2gMABxDYAQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAT05NT05EQVks RkVCUlVBUlkyNiwxOTk2MjowNVBNLEpLRVJTTVRQOkpLRVJATklVRURVV1JPVEU6VEhFUEFTU0FH RUlTQUZURVJUUkVOVEJVUlJJRVNOQVRIQU5BTkRJU1NJVAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAL0CAAC5AgAAQQQA AExaRnUBYWND/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0 ZW0CgzM3AuQHEwKDNARGEzMxIHcIVQeyAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EYDzI1NQKACoENsQtgYG5nMTAzFFAL A2x4aTM2DfALVRRRC/JjKQBAIE8DoE0CIGRhAHksIEZlYnJ1IQrAeSAyNh3gMTkEOTYegDowNSBQ Ek0d4EpLBJBbU02gVFA6amsEkEADAIR1LgmAdV0gdwNgPRPQOgqHC2QVYRzUMCC7IZ0cqT4iDxwR IUJjBUAwVGhlIAqwBBBhZ7MmsAQAIGEBgBaxVBgQOQIwIGIIcAiBB6FhdPcRgAOgAHBkJ0IAkAJA C4BeZyEgKNARcCniYwrAdPpvAiBzIz8kTyVfJmELgI4gKOAmsAUAYXdsBJC+LgqLG9sijyaBKNAn BCDkZXgA0HRsHnAuwgIgnSawSSoRBCAXoG9rKeI7AhAFwCgzsCjgCGBnaG8FQCahM9IBkGw0Qyrg IH5MAHAd4ChALnEFQDPSSjBvaG5uHnA3pCku+iAmhGgvEBGwM68FwDWzfzJRJ9UFoACBBIEJgC6y ab8FwAnBKNAHkDdBPKBrM4BPBBE6hDxCC2BjazNgZp8ncCmQCfA5MT6RaHUEYCsvYDiQSCawXxGA ZF/1NmJkNoBzA3ARwCpjNnE+dypgEXAush5wBaB1bJhkbicFQBgQc3AdkesugjRBZDiBQTfhC1Mp kM81EAfgPpE0kWNlHeBCGHdC4QnACGBwKSNAsSpgbd0zY2IRwCehOIFORNAd4PM+wUTFX2YKwEVg QGAz0vlA6GVsOTEHQCrgJyAuweMvYEuQIDspCoUx1kdRHkwHkEthCoUp0G1sQKBlcGl4LjOAdCuv FxZAS/wXMQBRAAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwoA4BmYcEuwFAAAgwoA4BmYcEuwEeAD0A AQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAO0j ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB046E.C91F3580-- **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: jory To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Neil Salon wrote: > >>Yesterday, that great invertebrate in the White House signed into the > >>law the Telecom "Reform" Act of 1996, while Tipper Gore took digital > >>photographs of the proceedings to be included in a book called "24 > >>Hours in Cyberspace." > > So... Any prediction on how they're going to try to enforce this law? Some sort > of datawatch? I thought about this but right now the government's a lot > more interested in cutting the Federal government, so I can guarantee that a > new beaurocracy to enforce this idiocy. This will leave it in the hands of > the FBI, who do not have the means to enforce this on any meaningful scale. > > Just a few thoughts, > Neil Salon > NSALON@CENTER.COLGATE.EDU > They aren't gonna bother enforcing it for some time. If they let the law sit on the books without ever charging anyone for it, no one can challenge it, so it'll just sit there. That will create a precedent that the law has never been challenged and will make fighting its legality much more difficult. Jory email: jory@shoko.calarts.edu URL : http://shoko.calarts.edu/~jory **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: sarah noelle pratt ferguson To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- > > >>Yesterday, that great invertebrate in the White House signed into the > > >>law the Telecom "Reform" Act of 1996, while Tipper Gore took digital > > >>photographs of the proceedings to be included in a book called "24 > > >>Hours in Cyberspace." > > > > So... Any prediction on how they're going to try to enforce this law? Some sort > They aren't gonna bother enforcing it for some time. If they let the law > sit on the books without ever charging anyone for it, no one can > challenge it, so it'll just sit there. That will create a precedent that > the law has never been challenged and will make fighting its legality > much more difficult. > Hello. Someone may have said this already, but I believe it is just a way to impale someone who is a "problem". -s- **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: jker To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- At 06:44 PM 2/26/96 -0800, you wrote: >Hello. > >Someone may have said this already, but I believe it is just >a way to impale someone who is a "problem". > >-s- > Huh??????????????? J. Kerman "Of course you realize this means war." -Bugs Bunny "War is the continuation of politics by other means" -Karl von Clausewitz **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: ksk124@psu.edu (keith keeling) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- >> > >>Yesterday, that great invertebrate in the White House signed into the >> > >>law the Telecom "Reform" Act of 1996, while Tipper Gore took digital >> > >>photographs of the proceedings to be included in a book called "24 >> > >>Hours in Cyberspace." >> > >> > So... Any prediction on how they're going to try to enforce this law? Some sort >> They aren't gonna bother enforcing it for some time. If they let the law >> sit on the books without ever charging anyone for it, no one can >> challenge it, so it'll just sit there. That will create a precedent that >> the law has never been challenged and will make fighting its legality >> much more difficult. >> > >Hello. > >Someone may have said this already, but I believe it is just >a way to impale someone who is a "problem". > >-s- Yeah but what does "problem" mean? Thats just basicly anyone they don't like in general. **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: sarah noelle pratt ferguson To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- > >Someone may have said this already, but I believe it is just > >a way to impale someone who is a "problem". > > > >-s- > > Yeah but what does "problem" mean? Thats just basicly anyone they don't > like in general. Exactly my point. A convenient way to jail someone (or whatever) especially since it has such a broad enforcement definition. hope it doesn't stick. s- **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 9856098 x-genie-gateway-id: 813068 Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- Keith, yes, exactly. Bingo. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: I just got a call from DKM -------- As was mentioned, he's out here in California. However, he has apparantly been unable to read his email for the past three weeks or so. (Actually, I hadn't thought he *was* going to be reading email, but he did, and the fact that he can't has been annoying ;).) He is going to be trying again tonight; hopefully that will work. I'm sure he'll drop us a note soon if it (or any subsequent attempt) does... Sean. **************** *** 02-27-96 *** **************** From: nsalon@center.colgate.edu (neil salon) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Fwd: And so it begins.... X-Sender: nsalon@center.colgate.edu -------- >They aren't gonna bother enforcing it for some time. If they let the law >sit on the books without ever charging anyone for it, no one can >challenge it, so it'll just sit there. That will create a precedent that >the law has never been challenged and will make fighting its legality >much more difficult. > >Jory > >email: jory@shoko.calarts.edu >URL : http://shoko.calarts.edu/~jory > First of all, I'd like to say that I never called Clinton an invertabrate (it appeared that I did in the last posting). Clinton had to sign the bill because the rest of the telecomunications bill is doing some really GOOD things for the country, namely getting rid of lots of out of date regulations. It was a lot easier to leave the unwanted provisions in, than to veto an omnibus 1000+ page bill because of one section. As to what's happening, there has been a court order that has nullified the anti-obscenity provisions until the ACLU case comes up, and the Justice Department is refusing to enforce the abortion provisions. Meanwhile Sen. Leahy of Vermont, and another Senator whose name escapes me have already proposed a bill that will strike the internet regulations. Neil Salon NSALON@COLGATE.EDU **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: jory To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Neil Salon wrote: > >They aren't gonna bother enforcing it for some time. If they let the law > >sit on the books without ever charging anyone for it, no one can > >challenge it, so it'll just sit there. That will create a precedent that > >the law has never been challenged and will make fighting its legality > >much more difficult. > > > >Jory > > > >email: jory@shoko.calarts.edu > >URL : http://shoko.calarts.edu/~jory > > > > First of all, I'd like to say that I never called Clinton an > invertabrate (it appeared that I did in the last posting). Clinton had to > sign the bill because the rest of the telecomunications bill is doing some > really GOOD things for the country, namely getting rid of lots of out of > date regulations. It was a lot easier to leave the unwanted provisions in, > than to veto an omnibus 1000+ page bill because of one section. > As to what's happening, there has been a court order that has > nullified the anti-obscenity provisions until the ACLU case comes up, and > the Justice Department is refusing to enforce the abortion provisions. > Meanwhile Sen. Leahy of Vermont, and another Senator whose name escapes me > have already proposed a bill that will strike the internet regulations. > > Neil Salon > NSALON@COLGATE.EDU > > Yes, I just heard about the court restriction. BTW, did you know that Bill & Hillary Clinton are founding members of the PMRC (Parent's Music Resource Center), a prominent censorship group? I don't think that Clinton HAD to sign anything. He WANTED to sign it. How long did the Budget battle go on for because he wouldn't agree with it? (Is it over? I haven't been paying attention!) Obviously, Clinton fights (or wants us to believe that he fights) for causes he believes in. If he didn't like the censorship part of the bill, he wouldn't have signed it. Jory email: jory@shoko.calarts.edu URL : http://shoko.calarts.edu/~jory **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 9449970 x-genie-gateway-id: 716754 Subject: RE: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- Jory, Tipper Gore was a founding member of the PMRC. I've never heard that the Clintons were involved. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- >Jory, Tipper Gore was a founding member of the PMRC. I've never heard that >the Clintons were involved. All right, everyone, stop it! This has less than nothing to do with mailing list. -Sol colomon@ralf.org **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 5566005 x-genie-gateway-id: 785189 Subject: I just got a call from DKM -------- Good news, Sean. Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: dan ealey To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- At 08:43 2/28/96 -0500, you wrote: >>Jory, Tipper Gore was a founding member of the PMRC. I've never heard that >>the Clintons were involved. > >All right, everyone, stop it! This has less than nothing to >do with mailing list. > Amen. **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: rjw@iinc.com (rob walsh) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Some thoughts and observations on tLD -------- I just finished re-reading tLD yesterday and noticed a couple of things that were previously metioned here (perhaps MUCH previously - I did read the message archives recently, and they are fresh in my mind.) First, it is metioned in several places that Dvan DID have wives and children, especially after the near-fatal wound in battle with Arthur. He loses all of his long term memory (until he sees the articles about the slowtime bubble being found in the Alps) - He didn't even know that he WAS Dvan, so any convictions he might have had about not wanting to mingle with the new human race would have been forgotten also (not that I remember him having any, anyway). There not being any mention of his death at the end, strongly implies that he did NOT die. In fact, unless DKM has said something otherwise, I would assume that he is still alive (as of the end of tLD.) He WOULD have to re-prioritize his life, as his primary reason for existence had been to kill heretic Dancers. Now that mission is fulfilled. (The description of dance/Dance somewhere in the book was interesting and provoked much thought... That the core of life is an expression that harmonizes with all other life - even nightways could be a "positive" disclipline: they don't believe that death is "good" or desired - they don't promote killing, especially meaningless killing. They have just discovered that Killing and dying can be just as much a positive "good" thing as living. -- Still leaves a little to be reconciled within me, though. Something about nightways bothers me, and I like, respect, and appreciate martial arts -- It just doesn't sit quite right... Another thought about dance (perhaps for DKM): How are we to 'dance' with computers (i.e. - "webdancing")? Dance implies a rhythm and careful timing - a dynamic expression that is more aesthetic than efficient (though not necessarily INefficient). With computers, there seems to be little room for this - most of the interaction occurs at very high speeds and/or at uncontrollable speeds/intervals. And what IS aesthetic, is static - essentially programming, or writing. I suppose the dance could be in the creation, but DKM's writing suggests that it is in the interaction. also. Food for thought.) Most significantly, I remember there being some discussion of David's dying at the end of tLD. I may have missed something previously discussed or said by DKM (I have no idea what the traffic was during 1995), but why are we assuming that he died? I remember being very shocked at the ending the first time I read the book (in fact, I was thrown by MUCH of the book - it has a much different flavor/character than tLR and EE.) But in reading it again, I noticed that there is a significant amount left unsaid. And DKM doesn't write haphazardly - it is never an accident that he does or doesn't say something. By his own confession (somewhere in the archives) his strength is plotting (and his sister's is description) -- he has been planning and designing these stories for DECADES. There are no significant plot points that are not VERY well thought out. If he didn't make it clear that David is dead, he isn't. It bothered me that we barely got ot *meet* David, let alone to know him, before he dies. tLR built too much toward this point to let it go by so trivially - Denice has finally found her twin, who is the only other living telepath - way too much potential to let him die after only a few chapters. That's the why - here's the how: Denice and David were *one* during the end of the Dance - that is clear in the text. It also says that David was the *most* peaceful and complete of any time in his life (or something to those words) at the climax of the Dance. This, right after he describes how wonderful and better than *anything* in life the "wire" is. This implies that the Flame is even more intense and wonderful and powerful than the effect of the wire. There is no way that David could *not* know that Denice was going to shoot him -- this means that he has to actively want to die, and also do nothing to stop it. I know that just before this, he said that he wanted to die, but he also said that he couldn't commit suicide. Besides, if he wanted to die, he could have let Sedon kill him. His response to that threat was without hesitation and rather violent. I contend that he didn't *really* want to die before, and having touched the Flame, definitely wouldn't want to now. And his abilities make it trivial to either not be there when the "bullet" arrives, or stop it before it gets to him. It is interesting that the story ends with the gun being fired. Not with David having been shot. Not with Denice's rush of joy at a Kill. Way too many ends left hanging. Besides, even if he had been shot, look at what Sedon recovered from - anything is possible. DKM's medical technology is even more incredible than his computer technology. Got to admit, though - best damn cliffhanger I've seen in a while... WHERE'S THE NEXT BOOK?!?!?!? :-) Later, Rob. **************** *** 02-28-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- >There not being any mention of his death at the end, strongly implies >that he did NOT die. In fact, unless DKM has said something otherwise, >I would assume that he is still alive (as of the end of tLD.) He WOULD >have to re-prioritize his life, as his primary reason for existence had >been to kill heretic Dancers. Now that mission is fulfilled. I believe DKM has stated that Dvan is still alive; however, the "Dvan" personality is probably pretty dead at this point. >Another thought about dance (perhaps for DKM): How are we to 'dance' >with computers (i.e. - "webdancing")? Dance implies a rhythm and >careful timing - a dynamic expression that is more aesthetic than >efficient (though not necessarily INefficient). The computers of tomorrow will be very, very different from the computers of today. Describing what Trent does as having "rhythm and careful timing" certainly fits, I think. >Most significantly, I remember there being some discussion of David's >dying at the end of tLD. I may have missed something previously >discussed or said by DKM (I have no idea what the traffic was during >1995), but why are we assuming that he died? Uhm, the fact that Denice shot him in the head at the end of the book is a primary reason we are assuming such. Sean. **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: dm@usa.pipeline.com (daniel moran) x-pipeuser: dm x-pipehub: usa.pipeline.com x-pipegcos: (daniel moran) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: I just got a call from DKM -------- On Feb 27, 1996 16:49:34, 'Sean Eric Fagan ' wrote: >As was mentioned, he's out here in California. However, he has apparantly >been unable to read his email for the past three weeks or so. (Actually, >I hadn't thought he *was* going to be reading email, but he did, and >the fact that he can't has been annoying ;).) Got through today. Even more annoying, though, is that (apparently) Pipeline _lost_ all mail sent to me between the 10th & 19th of this month. I'm getting very weary of this -- apparently e-mail _is_ rocket science. I jumped up and down and we'll see if the lost mail resurfaces. If not, please be aware that any mail sent me during that period is lost in the ether. I'm _loving_ being back in Los Angeles. And Magic came back to the Lakers! :-) I have about 100 unanswered pieces of mail now, not counting the lost stuff; I'll start in on them this weekend, but replies are going to be short. **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: sarah noelle pratt ferguson organization: dtrt, mozillaland To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: I just got a call from DKM References: <9602282107.AA04125@pipe2> -------- Daniel Moran wrote: > I have about 100 unanswered pieces of mail now, not counting the lost > stuff; I'll start in on them this weekend, but replies are going to be > short. heh. So this is our cue to send lots and lots of fluffy mail and forwards to you? To challenge your ISP. :) cheerios, -- Duchess of Chaos http://home.netscape.com/people/snpf **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: d.dvorkin1@genie.com To: continuing-time@ralf.org x-genie-qk-from: d.dvorkin1 x-genie-qk-id: 9049920 x-genie-gateway-id: 728174 Subject: that there call from DKM -------- Welcome back, Daniel! Daniel Dvorkin **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:35:35 -0800 Sean Eric Fagan said: > >>Most significantly, I remember there being some discussion of David's >>dying at the end of tLD. I may have missed something previously >>discussed or said by DKM (I have no idea what the traffic was during >>1995), but why are we assuming that he died? > >Uhm, the fact that Denice shot him in the head at the end of the book is a >primary reason we are assuming such. > >Sean. Now, now - no need to be snide, Sean. I found the ending of tLD to be pretty confusing myself. It remained semi-ambiguous until DKM posted here (and I am paraphrasing, my log files are offline about 150 miles away) "David wanted and needed to die; Denise helped him fulfill that need. I firmly believe in a person's right to choose the time and manner of their death." I felt less immediately sympathetic towards David, given what we had just seen him do (in tLD): he turned a man into something he would rather died than become, and he assisted Sedon in his plan to reintroduce the horrors of thermonuclear warfare to the world. I know, Sedon had control over him - but good grief, why couldn't David fight it? Even just a little? ------- David S **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: josh kaderlan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, David Silberstein wrote: > I felt less immediately sympathetic towards David, given what we had > just seen him do (in tLD): he turned a man into something he would > rather died than become, and he assisted Sedon in his plan to reintroduce > the horrors of thermonuclear warfare to the world. I know, Sedon had > control over him - but good grief, why couldn't David fight it? Even just > a little? > I found the portrayal of David in tLD a little odd, myself. He got about equal exposure in EE, and then in tLR and most of tLD he was a reasonably important off-stage character. Then, in the space of about 100 pages, he shows up, is subverted immediately, and then dies. I was left wondering why the hell DKM even bothered to write him into the book -- his death came as a bit of a surprise, but it didn't have any real effect on me, and he didn't serve a major purpose in terms of advancing the overall plot. After all of the build-up, wondering when Denice would be reunited with him, it felt like a let-down. --Josh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Josh Kaderlan | "Hristo Stoichkov for Emperor of Greater Bulgaria!" jek133@cac.psu.edu | Seen in a hostel in Budapest ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: "simon b. cardinale" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Josh Kaderlan wrote: [clipped stuff] > overall plot. After all of the build-up, wondering when Denice would be > reunited with him, it felt like a let-down. Josh, you're a sucker for a happy ending (to other readers, I've known Josh for seven years so I know I'm right :). It served a purpose even though the plot could have marched on without him. It brought closure to an area of Denice's life. The event altered or at least revealed some of her character. I think his main purpose was to do just that, rather than become an important character in his own right. Of course we have the ultimate authority handy. . . Simon **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: michael rosenberg To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: I just got a call from DKM -------- i have been using panix for some time now with no losses. another well known service is netcom. their advantage is local numbers throughout the states. it is unacceptable for an isp to lose mail. ditch em. mike **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: jory To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: RE: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 d.dvorkin1@genie.com wrote: > Jory, Tipper Gore was a founding member of the PMRC. I've never heard that > the Clintons were involved. > > Daniel Dvorkin > Yes, Tipper was a founding member, too, but so were the Clintons. Jory P.S. Don't you love the mass media for never informing people of what we really need to know? email: jory@shoko.calarts.edu URL : http://shoko.calarts.edu/~jory **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: rjw@iinc.com (rob walsh) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > >Another thought about dance (perhaps for DKM): How are we to 'dance' > >with computers (i.e. - "webdancing")? Dance implies a rhythm and > >careful timing - a dynamic expression that is more aesthetic than > >efficient (though not necessarily INefficient). > > The computers of tomorrow will be very, very different from the computers of > today. Describing what Trent does as having "rhythm and careful timing" > certainly fits, I think. The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion than the first computers 40 years ago. Only the speed and density have increased, with a corrolary increase in the quality and capability of the user interface and I/O. Unless there is a fundamental change in the nature of computing (which is hard to see at this point), the computers of tomorrow will be basically similar to today's. Anyway, I am not saying it's too fantastic to believe that we could "dance" with computers -- I love the idea! But I have this tendency to try to incorporate (at least philosophically) the interesting ideas I read into my life. And I was just looking for more clarity (if there is any) on *how* it could be done, if at all, *now* (or maybe, in more detail, what DKM envsions as webdancing.) > > >Most significantly, I remember there being some discussion of David's > >dying at the end of tLD. I may have missed something previously > >discussed or said by DKM (I have no idea what the traffic was during > >1995), but why are we assuming that he died? > > Uhm, the fact that Denice shot him in the head at the end of the book is a > primary reason we are assuming such. Like I said, I may have missed DKM's additional input in 1995. But if I remember correctly (the book is at home), the last words of tLD are: "... and fired." -- not "... shot David in the head." I'll check later. (I really hope my tone is not negative... I really enjoy these books, and the lively discussions that develop here. Sorry if I'm coming across wrong...) Later, Rob. **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) Organization: Analog Devices CPD -------- >From: rjw@iinc.com (Rob Walsh) >Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:43:10 -0500 (EST) >The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of >today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion than >the first computers 40 years ago. Only the speed and density have increased, >with a corrolary increase in the quality and capability of the user >interface and I/O. Unless there is a fundamental change in the nature >of computing (which is hard to see at this point), the computers of >tomorrow will be basically similar to today's. Transistors can now be made (in the lab, not in production) that are small enough that quantum effects become significant. I think it's entirely possible that quantum devices may radically alter computer engineering. -- Mike Long VLSI Design Engineer finger mikel@shore.net for PGP public key Analog Devices, CPD Division CCBF225E7D3F7ECB2C8F7ABB15D9BE7B Norwood, MA 02062 USA (eq (opinion 'ADI) (opinion 'mike)) -> nil **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- >The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of >today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion than >the first computers 40 years ago. Compare a Macintosh and/or a Newton with the ENIAC. Are you *sure* that computers are not "fundamentally different" than they were 40 years ago? Have the internals changed fundamentally? Not really; I mean, they're just as bound by the laws of physics, and the current crop of computers is pretty much an extension of teh same principles (binary computers, programmable, using various types of modifiable storage). Sean. **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: mhunter@shadow.res.cmu.edu (matthew hunter) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- Hi Mike Long (mike.long@analog.com), on Feb 29 you wrote: > Transistors can now be made (in the lab, not in production) that are > small enough that quantum effects become significant. I think it's > entirely possible that quantum devices may radically alter computer > engineering. My roommate last semester was doing a research project on quantum computing; the possibilities for certain sorts of problems seemed immense. One of the best examples I can come up with is from cryptography; somehow, the quantum effect could essentially eliminate any solutions to the factoring of a large polynomial (which is how modern cryptography works; one side has the polynomial, the other side the factors, and the interceptor must find which numbers factor the polynomial correctly -- or something like that anyway) which would not work... thus cutting computer time for the cracking of encryption from years on a supercomputer to a few minutes. **************** *** 02-29-96 *** **************** From: ben bishop To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Rob Walsh wrote: >>>Another thought about dance (perhaps for DKM): How are we to 'dance' >>>with computers (i.e. - "webdancing")? Dance implies a rhythm and >>>careful timing - a dynamic expression that is more aesthetic than >>>efficient (though not necessarily INefficient). >> >> The computers of tomorrow will be very, very different from the computers >> of today. Describing what Trent does as having "rhythm and careful >> timing" certainly fits, I think. > > The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of > today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion > than the first computers 40 years ago. Only the speed and density have > increased, with a corrolary increase in the quality and capability of the > user interface and I/O. Your last statemenmt really states it: increase in quality and capability of the user interface and I/O. Try the analogy of Walking is to Programming as Dancing is to "webdancing". Dancing is really nothing more than walking with a better user interface. (but it can be hard to perfect that user interface!) As the computer "power" increases, our ability to interface with it will also increase (since it can "waste" more of that "power" on helping the poor hapless fool work faster). Gifted programmers can use that "waste" in extraordinary ways to speed things up even more. We're at the young adult stage now: we've learned to walk, can even run on occaision, but haven't yet found the joys of dance. Suddenly, an analogy leaped for Ben's throat and strangled him to death... Ben Bishop, Atlantic Consultants, Inc. aci@shore.net If you can keep your head while all those about you are losing theirs, then perhaps you have misunderstood the situation. **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > Compare a Macintosh and/or a Newton with the ENIAC. > > Are you *sure* that computers are not "fundamentally different" than they > were 40 years ago? > > Have the internals changed fundamentally? Not really; I mean, they're just > as bound by the laws of physics, and the current crop of computers is pretty > much an extension of teh same principles (binary computers, programmable, > using various types of modifiable storage). > > Sean. > One way in which computers now are "fundamentally different" from the ENIAC or the predecessors like the battleship targeting computers(*) is what we do with them. Hardware-wise it is true that things are not fundamentally different (pace Mike Long's comment about quantum effects--out of my league). However, the notion of abstract "data" is very different the notion of calculation. Most early computers were calculational devices. They were used to calculate artillery tables and to integrate numerically various other differential equations of military and later scientific interest. Now we use them for symbol manipulation. If you ever get the chance read Herbert Simon's autobiography, or at least the sections about the origins of AI. The conceptual shift that he and Allen Newell made for GPS and Logic Theorist was huge, though others had made prior small but important strides. I think DKM's futurism of human interaction with computers lies in software, not hardware and this is quite correct. Obviously this lies on having an increasing hardware infrastructure of no small size. :) (* Interesting Aside: According to historian William H. McNeill, a British inventor devised the battleship targeting computer (an electromechanical beast) around 1908 or so. This could compute the vector and powder charge needed to fire the battleship main guns at targets, compensating for windage, roll, heading of the ship (i.e., allowing firing on the move), coriolis effect, etc.--tons of variables that are usually abstracted away in most physics models but are important for actually hitting a target. He asked for 100,000 Pounds Sterling. The British Navy, which had just got done investing millions of Pounds Sterling in fast-moving, but relatively lightly armored (compared to the Kriegsmarine) battleships, armed with longer range guns, refused, and decided to reverse engineer the device. When they did so, they made an inferior device that could not target accurately for a ship on anything but a straight heading (not straight towards the target, just straight) at 2/3 the range of the main guns, which just about ate up the range advantage the Royal Navy guns had over the Kriegsmarine guns on the much heavier armored German battleships. They didn't even save any money and forced the inventor to market his device to other nations _including Germany_. They had to eat crow and later buy the devices they had illegally copied. Moral of the story: stupidity and venality are a bad combination!) Jay Verkuilen jayv@uiuc.edu Witty remark: Is it just me, or do all the people who request "Reelin' in the Years" on those oldies stations completely miss the point? **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: rafial otaku To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > >Another thought about dance (perhaps for DKM): How are we to 'dance' > > >with computers (i.e. - "webdancing")? Dance implies a rhythm and > > >careful timing - a dynamic expression that is more aesthetic than > > >efficient (though not necessarily INefficient). > > > The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of > today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion than > the first computers 40 years ago. Only the speed and density have increased, It's not the computers will function differently, it is that we will be dealing with them at a different level of abstraction. For example, almost nothing is developed in pure assembly code any more, which would have been unthinkable even a few years back. Perhaps the interfaces and programming languages of the future will be such that they analogize well with acts of movement. To me, the relationship between "webdancing" and dancing is drawn from the need for intuition and spontaneous creativity, coupled with basis of rigorous technique and training. Even today, there is certain degree of art to getting the "feel" of a complex system, even if you have study the basic principles of how it operates. My girlfriend on the other hand, (precious art snob that she is) would say that the term webdancing was created to let us geeks feel like we were doing something that isn't totally soulless :) :) :) -raf **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: rjw@iinc.com (rob walsh) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- Point taken. A web browser interface allows much more flexibility and interaction than a shell account, and an interface with a paradigm like Doom would allow even more... (imagine being able to interact with the web like you can with Doom.... Wow!) I tend to see things from a system point of view and always strive for efficiency - i.e. the more complex the user interface, the worse it is; keep it as simple and efficient as possible, and don't sugar-coat anything for me. I couldn't imagine "dancing" using TCP/IP protocols; and most of today's complex user interfaces *limit* what you can do, rather than make it really usable (they're designed for average users, not "webdancers"). We will need to see a really *good* interface paradigm before webdancing is possible - the current ones are primarily designed to keep stupid users from doing stupid things. Thanks, Rob. **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: zane grey To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > from a system point of view and always strive for efficiency - i.e. > the more complex the user interface, the worse it is; keep it as > simple and efficient as possible, and don't sugar-coat anything for > me. I couldn't imagine "dancing" using TCP/IP protocols; and most > of today's complex user interfaces *limit* what you can do, rather > than make it really usable (they're designed for average users, not > "webdancers"). We will need to see a really *good* interface > paradigm before webdancing is possible - the current ones are > primarily designed to keep stupid users from doing stupid things. My understanding was the Players Image was their interface.... attuned and created by that webdancer for that webdancer... enabling a very high level of sophisticated and complex interaction with the computing and net environment. Inskins were reading some part of the brain (kind of curious about this... (maybe this is discussed/referred to in tLR or previously on the discussion group) not motor cortex unless they also paralysed you... starts mumbling about thalamic gates and such... but tracesets can't do that they just give input.... maybe using a self-trance technique.... anyway...), in combination with voice and keyboard commands to achieve a very high level way what Johnny Mnemonic was doing in the movie of the name when we went through the net with the gloves and visor (don't reply to this with the huge amount of errors and inconsistancies in that movie). - Zane. ================================================================== "I can only conclude that I am paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate." - Ivanova. ================================================================== **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- >My understanding was the Players Image was their interface.... attuned >and created by that webdancer for that webdancer... enabling a very high >level of sophisticated and complex interaction with the computing and net >environment. An Image is both how a Player (or other user) presents himself to the Infonet as a whole, and a filtering mechanism. Since the 'net is fast and contains much data, the Image is (pretty much) a program that responds in certain ways. This already exists to a certain degree, and is getting closer every year. Consider them the ultimate evolution of killfiles. Right now, there are software "agents" available that will go out and seek information for you, according to profiles you set; they are limited, but they are also getting more complex. It is not unreasonable to expect that a type of "agent" that goes out and actively hunts down information (based on the results of previous queries, leading it to the next place to look) may some day soon be common. After that, a logical step is to make the "agent" learn from its user, to find out what his preferences are, and, when told something like, "Make a airline reservation to Hawaii next week," have it figure out that, "Hey, he likes to save money, but he doesn't like SouthWestHawaiian Airlines; he prefers to fly in the early afternoon but has made exceptions; a friend of his is also on flight such-and-such" etc. Some of this, quite seriously, *is* being done right now. >Inskins were reading some part of the brain (kind of curious about >this... (maybe this is discussed/referred to in tLR or previously on the >discussion group) not motor cortex unless they also paralysed you... >starts mumbling about thalamic gates and such... but tracesets can't do >that they just give input.... A traceset is a means to bypass the need for a keyboard; it may also have the ability to generate images (the stories are not clear on that; if so, it's pretty limited). The reason for Trent to be in a trance is so that he can more completely focus on the traceset's input (and more completely focus on the commands he gives it). This is where the Image really comes in handy -- instead of requiring the user (Player) to have a high-bandwidth, full-sensory interface, the Image can take relatively minimal input from the user, and deal with the high-noise environment that is the Infonet. An Inskin is like a traceset, except that it interfaces directly with the person's nervous system. This allows a high-bandwidth, full-sensory interface. It seems to be, based on events in tLR, that there are other means to supply this interface without having an Inskin, but they are large, expensive, and highly visible (recall Trent's comment about the percentage of people who have Inskins being Players). The thingy that Trent got is as far beyond an Inskin, in many ways, as an Inskin is beyond a keyboard. Sean. **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: josh kaderlan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > A traceset is a means to bypass the need for a keyboard; it may also have > the ability to generate images (the stories are not clear on that; if so, > it's pretty limited). The reason for Trent to be in a trance is so that he > can more completely focus on the traceset's input (and more completely focus > on the commands he gives it). > I was under the impression a traceset served the purpose of a *monitor*, not a keyboard, based on the scene in EE with Trent teaching David and Denice how to webdance. He says that old-fashioned keyboards are better than pointboards, since you can *feel* the key being depressed and are sure that you've hit it. > An Inskin is like a traceset, except that it interfaces directly with the > person's nervous system. This allows a high-bandwidth, full-sensory > interface. An inskin seems to serve the purpose of both traceset and keyboard; when Booker runs his search to see what Trent's been up to, he just closes his eyes, he doesn't use a keyboard. --Josh **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD -------- On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Zane Grey wrote: > Inskins were reading some part of the brain (kind of curious about > this... (maybe this is discussed/referred to in tLR or previously on the > discussion group) not motor cortex unless they also paralysed you... > starts mumbling about thalamic gates and such... but tracesets can't do > that they just give input.... maybe using a self-trance technique.... > anyway...), in combination with voice and keyboard commands to achieve a > very high level way what Johnny Mnemonic was doing in the movie of the > name when we went through the net with the gloves and visor (don't reply > to this with the huge amount of errors and inconsistancies in that movie). > > - Zane. Tracesets only allow input? I thought tracesets allowed similar input and output to inskins, but with less speed and bandwidth (unless you were using one of the fancy full-body sets like Ripper had, which sounded like it was almost as good as an inskin. Does anyone have references for this? -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: ian sutherland To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Fwd: And so it begins.... -------- Blast it, would people please take this discussion elsewhere? It has essentially nothing to do with the Continuing Time. **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: verkuilen john v To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > > On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > A traceset is a means to bypass the need for a keyboard; it may also have > > the ability to generate images (the stories are not clear on that; if so, > > it's pretty limited). The reason for Trent to be in a trance is so that he > > can more completely focus on the traceset's input (and more completely focus > > on the commands he gives it). Right. It seems that the biofeedback trance filters out the noise from the rest of the world. After he gets the NN II, I think it was easier for him to "Go inside". He mentions somewhere in tLR that tracesets take adjustment and some getting used to, but I can't recall where that is. > > > I was under the impression a traceset served the purpose of a *monitor*, > not a keyboard, based on the scene in EE with Trent teaching David and > Denice how to webdance. He says that old-fashioned keyboards are better > than pointboards, since you can *feel* the key being depressed and are > sure that you've hit it. I've noticed some differences between EE and tLR. Perhaps this represents increasing technology? Trent seems to get by just fine with only a traceset through much of tLR (then he gets the NN II). > > > An Inskin is like a traceset, except that it interfaces directly with the > > person's nervous system. This allows a high-bandwidth, full-sensory > > interface. > > An inskin seems to serve the purpose of both traceset and keyboard; when > Booker runs his search to see what Trent's been up to, he just closes his > eyes, he doesn't use a keyboard. > Another interesting point on inskins: you can't remove one (re: Katrina Trudeau's discussion with Trent upon first meeting). This would provide a pretty heavy barrier to most people wanting one, since if you don't like it you can't take back your decision. Also, the investment is substantial since you won't be able to update it if and when much better models come out. Jay Verkuilen jayv@uiuc.edu Witty remark: Is it just me, or do all the people who request "Reelin' in the Years" on those oldies stations completely miss the point? **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: mhunter@shadow.res.cmu.edu (matthew hunter) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- Hi verkuilen john v (jayv@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu), on Mar 1 you wrote: > I've noticed some differences between EE and tLR. Perhaps this represents > increasing technology? Trent seems to get by just fine with only a traceset > through much of tLR (then he gets the NN II). I would guess increasing skill is a factor as well. But technology has definately increased. Early tracesets required complex biofeedback training and were large and obvious... modern ones fit in sunglasses and can be used at the drop of a hat. > Another interesting point on inskins: you can't remove one (re: Katrina > Trudeau's discussion with Trent upon first meeting). This would provide > a pretty heavy barrier to most people wanting one, since if you don't like > it you can't take back your decision. Also, the investment is substantial > since you won't be able to update it if and when much better models come out. Which is why Trent got the best he could find... **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: michael.bundschuh@eng.sun.com (michael bundschuh) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII -------- > > Another interesting point on inskins: you can't remove one (re: Katrina > > Trudeau's discussion with Trent upon first meeting). This would provide > > a pretty heavy barrier to most people wanting one, since if you don't like > > it you can't take back your decision. Also, the investment is substantial > > since you won't be able to update it if and when much better models come out. I wonder if you could use nanotechnology to replace your inskin? I don't recall DKM mentioning nanotechnology too much, but it would be neat to swallow a "update" pill chock full of intelligent nano-robots which could update your inskin to the latest specs. --- Mike --- **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- >I wonder if you could use nanotechnology to replace your inskin? I >don't recall DKM mentioning nanotechnology too much, but it would be >neat to swallow a "update" pill chock full of intelligent nano-robots >which could update your inskin to the latest specs. I'd have to check the book to make sure, but I think the "healing viruses" (or some of them, anyway) are examples of nanotech; some of them are certainly just gengineered viruses, though. Of course: what is the different between using nanotech machines and geneticly-engineered viruses? ;) Sean. **************** *** 03-01-96 *** **************** From: "ryan dooley" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- On Mar 1, 1:20pm, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) > >I wonder if you could use nanotechnology to replace your inskin? I > >don't recall DKM mentioning nanotechnology too much, but it would be > >neat to swallow a "update" pill chock full of intelligent nano-robots > >which could update your inskin to the latest specs. > > I'd have to check the book to make sure, but I think the "healing viruses" > (or some of them, anyway) are examples of nanotech; some of them are > certainly just gengineered viruses, though. > > Of course: what is the different between using nanotech machines and > geneticly-engineered viruses? ;) A couple of Atoms? ;) > > Sean. >-- End of excerpt from Sean Eric Fagan --ryan -- ######################################################################## Systems Administrator # Ryan Dooley University of Missouri, Columbia # Office phone: (573) 882-2162 College of Education # Email:ryan@coe.missouri.edu Center for Technology Innovations in Education **************** *** 03-02-96 *** **************** From: jeff wilson To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > Another interesting point on inskins: you can't remove one (re: Katrina > > Trudeau's discussion with Trent upon first meeting). This would provide > > a pretty heavy barrier to most people wanting one, since if you don't like > > it you can't take back your decision. Also, the investment is substantial > > since you won't be able to update it if and when much better models come out. > > Which is why Trent got the best he could find... Hmm, why can't you get another one, again? I don't recall. Jeff **************** *** 03-02-96 *** **************** From: mhunter@shadow.res.cmu.edu (matthew hunter) To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- Hi Jeff Wilson (jwilson@io.com), on Mar 1 you wrote: > > Which is why Trent got the best he could find... > Hmm, why can't you get another one, again? I don't recall. They don't know how to take the old one out. **************** *** 03-02-96 *** **************** From: "brian j. roelofs" To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > Hmm, why can't you get another one, again? I don't recall. > They don't know how to take the old one out. It's not so much that they don't know how, it's that the process would prove devastating to the patient. Why? Inskins eventually integrate themselves with the normal functioning of the brain. You might think of them as an extra "lobe", much like the cerebrum. If, for instance, the hypothalamus were removed from your brain, all of your autonomic functions (heart beat, breathing, digestion, etc.) would no longer be controlled. Doctors could certainly just go in and physically remove the inskin, but it would be the same as massive brain damage. Think of it like sneaking a RAM chip out of the computer you're using. Your brain would try to retrieve information that was no longer there. You might call it an "organic bus error." Or so I gather, Brian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian J. Roelofs roelbj@umich.edu http://www-personal.umich.edu/~roelbj **************** *** 03-02-96 *** **************** From: jeff wilson To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- > > > Which is why Trent got the best he could find... > > Hmm, why can't you get another one, again? I don't recall. > They don't know how to take the old one out. Ah, but you needn't take the old one out before you put a new one in necessarily. Physically there's enough room for the ultra-fine filaments and so forth, and a sufficiently advanced new generation of inskins could jumper the old one, using it as a go between. Interesting plot possibilities there; would it be like getting another eye attached? Literal doublethink? Scary. Jeff **************** *** 03-04-96 *** **************** From: casey rousseau x-sender: kroussea@shakti To: continuing time Subject: Please excuse the off topic post -------- Anyone interested in signing a free speech petition email me. Casey Rousseau Trinity College, Hartford, CT or http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~kroussea **************** *** 03-05-96 *** **************** From: donald c thomas iii To: continuing-time@ralf.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and observations on tLD (SPOILERS!) -------- In <199602291925.LAA02575@kithrup.com>, on 02/29/96 at 11:25 AM, Sean Eric Fagan said: >>The computers of tomorrow may be different, but from what I have seen of >>today's stuff, it does not function in a fundamentally different fashion >>the first computers 40 years ago. >Compare a Macintosh and/or a Newton with the ENIAC. >Are you *sure* that computers are not "fundamentally different" than they >were 40 years ago? >Have the internals changed fundamentally? Not really; I mean, they're >just as bound by the laws of physics, and the current crop of computers >is pretty much an extension of teh same principles (binary computers, >programmable, using various types of modifiable storage). >Sean. -- I have been lurking for about a month and I know that I am easily the one with the least information about this series.... I have only been able to get TLD and read it only a couple of times....... I need that F